News Page
September 23, 2002
The Post-Standard
By virtually any measure, Title IX does what Congress hoped the law would do when it was passed 30 years ago. The number of female college athletes is up more than 400 percent. Rates for participation among male college athletes also are up - by more than 20 percent. The civil rights legis lation created opportunities for the athletes who won gold medals in softball at the Olympics, won the Women's World Cup in soccer and helped create the interest and the athletic prowess for a professional women's basketball league.
Providing equal opportunities for girls and young women to participate on sports teams is a no-brainer. That it's done by forcing schools that take federal funds to comply makes all kinds of sense. So it's hard to figure out why the issue is being revisited.
Many schools - while much better than they were in 1972 - are not in compliance. For every dollar spent on women's athletics, $3 is spent on men's. A 1999-2000 NCAA study found while 54 percent of college students are female, they receive only 36 percent of the sports operating dollars, 42 percent of athletic scholarships and 32 percent of the recruiting budget.
But instead of coming up with better enforcement, the Department of Education is holding hearings to figure out whether the law should be changed. It shouldn't. The $700,000 the federal government is spending on the hearings would be better spent helping colleges and high schools find ways to offer equal opportunities.
It appears the Bush administration took its cue to re-examine Title IX from a lawsuit filed by the National Wrestling Coaches Association to force a change. Members of Syracuse University's former team joined the case as plaintiffs. (Don't bet on this lawsuit prevailing: Earlier this month, the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a lower court's 2001 ruling that found Title IX is constitutional as it is now applied.)
What those plaintiffs and too many other people fail to recognize is that their problem is not the law, but the way colleges have chosen to interpret it. There is ugly talk of nonexistent quotas, when the heart of the law is that most American of values - equal access.
When adding opportunities for women, many colleges and universi ties cut less-subscribed men's sports - instead of increasing their overall athletic budget, or cutting so-called money sports. Try looking at it this way: Women's lacrosse didn't eat the budget that could have saved Syracuse University's wrestling or gymnastic teams; it was football.
The 85 scholarships awarded to football players every year have a hugely disproportionate effect on the budget, leaving us to wonder one more time why those teams can't get by with, say, 60 scholarships. Only 11 guys play at one time. Surely, even with specialties, they could get by with 60 on the team. (Granted, SU or any other college won't cut the number of football scholarships unless the teams they compete against do. But why can't the NCAA push for that?)
One thing that could not be predicted when Title IX passed is the huge benefit to girls and young women who play sports - benefits that extend out to the larger society. The Women's Sports Foundation found girls who play sports have a better body image, higher self-esteem and confidence. They experience less depression and are less likely to use drugs or smoke. They get better grades, have lower dropout rates and are more likely to go to college. And, they are less likely to get pregnant as teens.
Some suspect the eventual fight over Title IX will come down to a clash between soccer moms and wrestling dads. The law doesn't need to change; the way colleges are interpreting it should.
----------------------------------------------------------------
AT BU, WRESTLING WITH CONTROVERSY
September 22, 2002. Phoebe Sweet, Globe
WOMAN SAYS SHE QUIT TEAM AFTER MISTREATMENT
Cheryl Wong, the first woman ever to join the Boston University Men's
Division I wrestling team when she did so in the fall of '99, never
wanted to be a pioneer. She just wanted to wrestle.
But last January, after two and a half years, Wong quit the team,
although she continues to pursue her wrestling at area clubs, with both men and
women. Her reasons for leaving the BU program: a combination of what
she considered harassment from her teammates and, more frustrating, lack of
equal wrestling time. She says both quickly sapped the passion for the
sport
that had propelled her onto the team in the first place.
The case illustrates the sometimes painful situations that have arisen
in
the aftermath of Title IX, the 1972 federal law prohibiting sexual
discrimination in programs or activities at any educational institution
that
receives federal funding.
While her coach says Wong would have been better off on an all- female
team,
when the wrestler tried to start a club team last fall with several
other
women, BU's administration ruled that there weren't enough people
interested.
Wong, who had wrestled in high school, decided to join the BU wrestling
team
during her freshman year when she discovered that anyone could walk on
and
that there was no women's team.
Her coach, Carl Adams, said that, at 5-foot-2 and 126 pounds, Wong was
so
mismatched with the rest of the team he could easily have cut her the
first
day of tryouts.
"She does not have the strength to defend herself against a true
Division
One wrestler," he said. "There is a major physical mismatch no matter
how
you slice it." He said he was more concerned with trying to protect her
from
injury than getting her a challenging workout.
Wong said she was more likely to be paired with a heavyweight non-
starter
than someone in her own weight class.
"I was only allowed to wrestle with the second string or the odd man
out,"
she said. "If I stayed there I would never get better."
To supplement team practices, Cheryl would practice with a female
wrestler
at Harvard University or with boys' high school teams such as Brookline
High, Boston Latin, and Savio Prep.
Adams said that while he considered allowing Wong to wrestle risky, "I
decided I would take a chance on helping Cheryl pursue her goals."
Adding to the lack of mat time, she said, was the sexual harassment,
ridicule, and physical abuse from her teammates.
"Freshman year, I opened the sexual harassment handbook and checked off
every [violation] but one," said Wong, now in her fourth year at BU.
She
said her male teammates asked her sexually charged questions, threw
tennis
balls and water bottles at her head, and sometimes hit her with a
large,
partly inflated workout ball.
"I started to ask myself, `Do I really love this?' " she said.
Adams and Wong's former teammates dispute her claim, saying she
misinterpreted actions that were simply part of the team culture. Ali
Abri,
the team's captain, called Wong an outsider with a "natural defensive
reaction" and said it was common for teammates to throw tennis balls,
soccer
balls, or water bottles around the room during warm-ups.
If Wong wanted to be on the team, Abri said, she should have expected
to be
treated like any other member.
Jason Slutsky, Wong's practice partner until he quit the team for
academic
reasons, said he feels Wong was treated differently because she was a
woman.
The attitude on the team, he said, was "why is she doing it? This is
our
sport."
But another teammate, Mark Laramee, called Wong's accusations of
mistreatment "off the wall" and "ridiculous."
"We tried to treat her as an equal," Laramee said. "I don't think she
was
harassed at all."
Nationally, women's wrestling teams are few and far between. In
2000-01,
only 15 NCAA colleges offered such programs, according to the Women's
Sports
Foundation.
"No gender equality law really ends up stopping discrimination," said
Donna
Lopiano, executive director of the Women's Sports Foundation. "It
drives it
underground."
Adams, the BU coach, said he never heard Wong complain about the
treatment
she was getting. "Cheryl never told me that she was having problems,
and I
never witnessed anything outside of what [normally] happens in the
wrestling
room," he said.
Wong said she decided to quit rather than bring her complaints about
the
team's behavior to Adams because she didn't want to injure the team.
Shortly
after wrestling partner Slutsky quit in January Wong quit as well,
after
being told by teammates that she was "a danger to the team."
In the end, Wong says, she wouldn't care what team she was on, or how
much
ridicule she had to put up with, if she had been able to get equal
wrestling
time. She says she doesn't feel bitter toward her teammates.
"By the end of freshman year, [teammates] still called me a man or a
lesbian
or a machine," she said, "but [they] also called me a wrestler."
---------------------------------
The Mat Female Bulletin Board Reply's about this story..
Femforce1
Starting Member
USA
6 Posts Posted - 09/27/2002 : 1:45:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just another case where a wrestler wasn't treated fairly because of her gender. C'mon! This is now a sport for men AND WOMEN!
Edited by - Femforce1 on 09/27/2002 1:45:50 PM
Edited by - Femforce1 on 09/27/2002 1:46:21 PM
cabrave
Junior Member
152 Posts Posted - 09/27/2002 : 6:19:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think so Fem. I know Carl and the BU program very well, and I can tell you that what he said is genuine. Coach Adams has always put saftey first, and this didn't just start with the woman in question. However I'm guessing that she took Carl's concern for her safety as a slight to her ability. As far as the team sexually harassing her I wasn't there so I can't judge. However I can see how normal "team banter" like the situations described could be misinterpreted as harassment. Here's the part that really bugs me though. She got a chance! Carl allowed her to come into the room and work out. She complains that her work out partners were the "odd man out" Excuse me? Wasn't she the odd man or shall we say woman out? She didn't get recruited to wrestle at BU. She walked onto the team like many others, and now she's going to complain about having to wrestle the other walk ons? That's compeltely ridiculous.
Garth Hillary
Starting Member
Canada
13 Posts Posted - 09/28/2002 : 12:54:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am one of the strongest supporters of women's wrestling around,and with this being said,I strongly disagree with this article.
It seems to me that if Carl Adams is guilty of anything,it is being nice enough to allow this women in the room with his team.No one forced him too,and yet unlike most he did it anyway.
It seems to me that she should thank him,instead of trying to embarrass him and his program.
As far as her being forced to work out with the worst guys in the room,It's hard for me to imagine that she wasn't the worst wrestler in the room!Is she even ranked in the top ten in women's wrestling?
Lets be honest,women's wrestling has come a long way,but still has a long way to go before they are ready to be involved with a Division one,two or three men's wrestling team!
This article was an embarrassment to the BU wrestling team,Carl Adams and to women's wrestling.I feel sorry for the next women who asks to work out with a men's team,and after reading this article is denied by the coach.
I'm sure there are things on both sides that were left out,but based on this article the only villain I see here is Ms.Wong.
Carl48Wrestln
Starting Member
2 Posts Posted - 09/29/2002 : 09:34:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:06:47 -0400
To: Wong <chewong@bu.edu>
From: Carl Adams <cadams@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Reporter
I want the readers to know what the real deal is. Below you will find an e-mail that I sent
to Cheryl Wong when I found out that she may have had some issues with her wrestling
experience. There are two documents that I would like to post. One is a letter that I prepared
for the student reporter when figured out what type of article she wanted to write. The other
is an email that I sent to Cheryl after repeated request for her to come to my office and share
her concerns.
I really did not want to get into the he said she said, but I figured that if the readers wanted my side
of the story, here it is.
Carl
Cheryl,
I though that perhaps you would have taken the time to stop by or at
least call. I know you are working, but it has been almost three months
since we starting e-mailing each other. It just seems awfully strange
that you can't find the time to pick up a phone or at least stop by. After
three months of my repeated request for you to stop by and share your concerns
with me, I have come to the conclusion that you have no intention to stop by.
After all, if things have been so terrible for you, I would think that you would
at least want to share them with a person who might be able to help solve
any problems that you may have been having. I don't ever remember us
not getting along or not being able to discuss ways that you might be
able to improve your wrestling. The same has been true for Coach Brace,
Earl, Steve, Fernando and most of our wrestlers.
I would have called you but no one has your number and I can't seem
to find a number for you by calling information.
Anyway, I thought that I would let you know whats' going on with our reporter friend.
She showed up last week to ask me some more questions about your experience
as a B.U. Wrestler. I have a much better idea of where she is going with her story.
She also shared some of the things that you told her.
One thing is clear about where she is going with her article. I hope I am wrong,
but it seems that she wants to write an article about how Cheryl, the female wrestler
has been neglected, harassed and abused during her wrestling experience at B.U.
If you feel this way, I must say, it is a total surprise to me. You have
never told me about anyone harassing you. This is not to say that it
did not happen, but I never saw it happen in the wrestling room. The only
thing that I could think of would be the times that you got upset because
I would caution the guys on being careful how they wrestle you. I seriously
wonder if that would fit into your neglected category.
The only other thing that I could think of would be the time that someone told me that
Eddie threw some water on you. For your information, I took Eddie into the coaches'
locker and gave him a serious talking to. I bet that never happened again.
Cheryl, remember, you weren't even the person that told me.
This reporter seemed to want to cherry pick the worst things about your wrestling
experience. For example, she mentioned about you trying to get a club started. One
of the things she said was that Tom said that I would not let you use the room to
establish a club team. That is pure bull. Remember, I am the one who told you to go to Tom
in the first place. I have not let any B.U. clubs use the room, primarily because of
vandalism and I have told you many times, because of the lack of supervision. You might
remember the time you took a high school student in the room. I had told you numerous times
that you could not bring your friends in the room when coaches weren't in there and when there
was no supervision. If you remember, your high school friend got hurt and she had to be treated
by our trainers. That is one of the reasons why I do not want other groups using the wrestling room.
It is not because I did not want Cheryl to start her wrestling club. By the way Cheryl, have I not allowed
you to wrestle in the club that we have and have I not told you to bring as many friends
as you would like and have I not pared you with partners and watched over you during our
club practices? In case you haven't noticed, our reporter friend wants this to seem like it was one
of the ways that you were so neglected.
Another thing that the reporter ask me was about the wrestlers hitting you in the head with
a small ball in the wrestling room. She seemed to indicate that this may have been a frequent
thing. In the three years that you have been on the team,I have never seen the wrestlers specifically
target you. In fact I have never seen anyone hit you with a ball. That is not to say that on an occasion
it did not happen. But you know that if you had told me, there is no way that I would have allowed
that to happen.
This is what I have seen. I have seen the wrestlers kick the soccer ball at each other. I have seen them
throw small balls at each other while they are running in a circle during warm ups and have seen
them play various wrestling games. As you know, some of the games are quite rough. keep in mind
that this is the sport of wrestling and wrestling is a rough sport. In my 40 years of involvement in the sport,
I have never heard anyone complain about these pre practice activities being harassment.
I am curious, do you think the wrestlers are harassing each other?
Let me ask you another question, does that mean that all of the other wrestlers can do it to each other, but don't
include Cheryl in this type of team play activity. One more question, did you ever
once see any other wrestler get bent out of shape when they hit each other with balls?
Cheryl, all you had to do is mention it to me one time, and it would have never happened again.
That is true for any type of harassment you may have encountered.
The student reporter did mention that you told her that you did not want to tell me because
you felt that I would not allow you to stay on the team. WOW, If that was the case you
would have been gone a long time ago. I have given you more flexibility than anyone I have
ever coached. You come and go when you please. You come to practice when you please.
You quit the team and went to wrestle with Brookline high school. I allowed to rejoin the team
with no problem what so ever. That does not sound like someone who does not want you on the team.
( Sounds like the reporters case for intimidation of a female wrestler )
Cheryl, you did not want to tell the person who could have put an immediate stop to any problems
you may have been having, but you are willing to share them with the rest of the world
and the Boston Globe. (Strange)
I would much rather you have gone to our athletic director or even the president of Boston
university with your complaints. At least your story, would not have been twisted and sensationalized
for public consumption. I feel that is exactly what Student Reporter Sweet is doing.
It is quite clear that she is using this story to give her writing career a jump start. She did tell me
she was looking for a job. Remember, she started out doing a story for one of her B.U. classes.
I don't have all the facts as to what you told her, but she obviously had enough sensational information
that she is shopping her story to the Boston Globe.
You have given her the fuel to rake Boston University, your teammates, every male wrestler and our wrestling program
over the coal. The sad part is that I know this is not what you would like to happen. You know as well as I, that there
are many tremendous individuals involved in the sport of wrestling. Earl Walker, Kendal, Jose, Rivera,
Holder, Schliens, Malcolm, Rivera, Laramee, Coach Goode, Mark Brace, Dan Gable, Cael Sanderson and
your high school,coach to name a few. I am not denying that there are people in the sport who are not
very good people. But, this is true in any sport. It is true in any walk of life. However, I feel that those people
come far and few between in our sport.
Quite frankly Cheryl, I find you to be an incredible person. I admire your determination, work ethic and love
for the sport. I really feel that perhaps this is more frustration than anything else. Perhaps you need to come to
grips with the fact that you can not compete at this level. I do not mean that to be negative. Rather than cut
you during the first tryout practice, I wanted you to succeed and I wanted you to have every opportunity to pursue
your wrestling goals. The thing that I could not due was alter this division one program so that it fits Cheryl Wong's
level of competence. We could never compete at this level if I did that.
I would hate to think that this is a way for you to draw attention to yourself or a way to get revenge on your
teammates. I say that because some of the things that the student reporter seemed to indicate and some parts of
the story she is trying to paint just aren't true. She obviously needs to make all of her parts point in
the same direction. Right now they just aren't fitting.
However, if you wanted to paint a real negative picture of your wrestling involvement at B.U. your teammates
our wrestling program and the male dominated sport of wrestling, congratulations, if what this student reporter
is telling me is true, you have done a heck of a job and that is your right. All I can say, is more power to you.
Have a nice summer. I hope to see you in the fall and I would still like to help you pursue your
wrestling goals.
Coach Adams
6/19/02
Reporter Sweet,
When you first called me to do a story on Cheryl Wong, you mentioned that you were doing a class project for one of your classes. You indicated that you wanted to interview me regarding Cheryl's participation on the wrestling team. I agreed to the interview and did my best to answer your questions. I wanted to help you with your project like I have done with many other B.U. students over the past 21 years.
Subsequently, I have received at least three more calls from you regarding Cheryl and her participation on the wrestling team. I noticed that in your second interview, your questions centered more on Cheryl and whether I knew anything about specific incidents of harassment against her. Your questions seemed to indicate that Cheryl told you that she had been harassed on a number of occasions. Furthermore, your questions led me to believe that Cheryl told you that I knew that she was being harassed and apparently did nothing about it. I hope that this assumption is wrong, but that is what I thought I heard.
If that is what she told you, it could not be further from the truth.
In your recent request for an additional interview, you indicated that you intend to publish your article. You have every right to do so and Cheryl has every right to express the way she feels to you. However, if you are planning on publishing this piece, I want to make sure that you have your facts correct. You seem to be bent on publishing a controversial piece. In fact, you seem to be obsessed with the controversy this piece might generate. You have been quite dogmatic in your pursuit for information. I can understand you wanting to establish yourself. However, my hope is that your intend to print the truth and that you will take the time to investigate the source of your information.
Given your line of questioning, it seems that you want to focus on how a female wrestler was harassed and the coach allowed it to happen. If this line of reasoning is incorrect, I apologize. However, if this is where you are going, you are about to write a story that is totally false.
To re iterate, there was an incident that you asked me about regarding Cheryl and some water throwing that took place in the wrestling room. First of all, I wasn't in the room when it took place. Secondly, it was not Cheryl who informed me. However, for your information, I took immediate action against the person that threw the water on Cheryl when I found out who threw the water.
You should also be aware that this type of horsing around happens periodically in every sport. Ask Cheryl how much kidding around goes on before practice. It is generally all in fun and not meant as a way to harass anyone. These are games and pre practice activities that take place usually in the locker room and on almost every sports team there is.
I also want to advise you that my only contact with Cheryl is in the wrestling room. If Cheryl told you that I allow individuals to harass her in the wrestling room, it doesn't even make sense. Ask Cheryl this. Ask her if Coach Adams goes out of his way to protect her during regular practices as well as our club practices. Ask her how many times I have cautioned her practice partners to be more careful with her. For your information, it was probably over 100 times since Cheryl has been on the team. Also, whenever Cheryl is wrestling, I literally spend about a third of my coaching time watching over Cheryl to make sure that she does not get injured unnecessarily. If I allowed Cheryl to be harassed, why would I go out of my way on so many occasions to protect her?
I am curious to know if you asked Cheryl if she ever told me that she was being harassed? You might want to ask her that. The answer to that question is absolutely not. Cheryl never told me that she was having problems and I never witnessed anything outside of what happens in the wrestling room.
Why don't you do this, ask any of the wrestlers, anyone in the athletic department or any who knows me, if Coach Adams is the type of individual who would ever allow Cheryl to be harassed in the wrestling room or anywhere for that matter. That might shed a little light on who I am and what I am all about.
As I told you in your first phone interview, I did everything possible to make sure that Cheryl would not be put in a position where she would sustain a serious injury. Cheryl would actually get upset because I went out of my way to protect her so much. I am sure that even she will tell you that I went overboard trying to protect her.
I am going to take the time to share my reason for protecting Cheryl so much. It might also shed some light on my perspective on coaching a female wrestler on an all male team. A few years back, a high school female wrestler broke her neck during a duel meet. She was paralyzed from the neck down. She was competing against a male wrestler. The girl sustained the injury when her opponent was applying a routine wrestling technique. Even the lawsuit says that there was no negligence on the part of anyone involved. This would include the referee, the coach and the wrestler who the girl was competing against. The girl's family sued for forty million dollars.
The same thing could happen to Cheryl because she does not have the strength to defend herself against a true division one college wrestler. I refuse to put Boston University or myself in a position where we have face a similar situation.
There is no doubt that trying to wrestle on a Division One Wrestling Team has been frustrating for Cheryl. It was clear that it would be an up hill battle from the beginning. There are many issues that could turn quite negative when you have a female competing on a traditionally all male team. I am sure that that is the lure that perked your interest in doing a story on Cheryl in the first place.
It would have been quite easy to drop Cheryl from the team during the first day of tryouts. She did not come close to having the requirements of a Division One Wrestler. However, I decided that I would take a chance on helping Cheryl pursue her goals. I thought that having Cheryl on the team would be good for the program and good for the sport of wrestling. Unfortunately, the odds stacked against her turned out to be more than she could overcome. She is the smallest person on the team, the weakest person on the team and she has less wrestling skills than any wrestler on the team. In addition, she is not capable of giving anyone on the team a quality workout. Most of the wrestlers do not want to wrestle with her for fear that they might hurt her or that they could not get a quality workout. I am sure that that was a big source of Cheryl's frustration.
However, to Cheryl's credit, she has worked very hard to improve as a wrestler. I have been truly impressed with her grit and determination. Unfortunately, it is clear that she has been up against a very difficult task. If my reasoning is correct about what I think Cheryl told you, it sounds like her lack of success and need for attention has turned in a different direction.
You might also be interested to know that I e-mailed Cheryl immediately after your second phone interview. I did that because it was the first time I had any hint that Cheryl may have had some problems. I believe it has been over two months since my first e-mail to her. We have e-mailed each other at least five times subsequently. I will be more than happy to share all of the e-mails that took place between Cheryl and I. I have also asked her to give me a call so that we could talk about any issues she may have had. To this day, Cheryl has not found the time to discuss any problems she may have had or pick up the phone to set up a meeting. Furthermore, feel free to publish this letter as well as the e-mails right beside your article. If nothing else, you seem to want to write a factual article that is truthful and balanced.
Coach Adams
Boston University
andersonbar119
Starting Member
USA
4 Posts Posted - 09/29/2002 : 7:21:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've read both sides of the story and I'd like to say something about it. So first off, i'd like to tell you that in college the guys are more physically developed which will give the females little chance at winning. But I am sure that Cheryl realizes this and is not planning on becoming some NCAA champion, rather she justs wants a practice partner preferably her own weight. She knows the risks of wrestling and especially against college guys, and this is a risk she is willing to take. Cause it it wasn't then why would she even think about wrestling at all? She probably knows she will not make the starting line-up, but can you blame her for just wanting to practice so she will do well at the tournaments? And obviously she is not welcomed by the wrestlers at Boston University, sure the guys are probably just playing around, but I think they are doing it on purpose to Cheryl in order to make her feel unwelcomed and as a statement meaning she should not compete in their sprot. I mean, get real, if the guys were playing around punching each other on the face, and they punch her you'd be telling me they were just playing around? I really don't think so, they can treat her like one of them but there are certain limitations. The guys on my team would never throw things at my head or punch me, they charge at each other and the most they would do to me is just show up out of nowhere and just take me down and wrestle. They would never do such a thing, they would just play arond with me like they do each other but not all that other stuff. What that is called is harrassment, there's no other way to put it. I don't hear Patricia Miranda complaining about her Stanford team at all, maybe because she is actually welcomed there. It just seems like a whole buch of excuses, not wanting her to wrestle because she might get hurt or vandalism which is why she can't get the girls to come and start a club. There are just two things you need to get clear to her: You can wrestle with the other guys in your weight but it is at your own risk, you might get hurt/If I let you use the room, you are in charge and take full reposnsibility for whatever happens in this room. And if you don't want her to be in the room unless you or the other coaches are there, then why don't one of the coaches or yourself stay and supervise them. You have time for the guys but you don't have enough time to help her pursue her dreams or promote girls' wrestling. There is just one thing in my head after this whole thing I've been reading, Boston Universty's wrestling team does not welcome girls' wrestling. Sorry to come off this way, I have alot of respect for you for coming forward and trying to talk to Cheryl. But what the wrestlers on your team are doing to her is pure crap. I guess what the question is is what have you done as a coach to help her get to the next level and become a champion? I'm sure this is what you are doing for the guys, but what about her? Not everyone likes the fact that girls are wrestling, but that's not the point, if one appears on your team it is your job as a coach to do everything in your power to get her to where she need to be, as you would the guys. She should not be denied anything the guys aren't. People can agree or disagree, but this is the way i see it.
cabrave
Junior Member
152 Posts Posted - 09/29/2002 : 8:35:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with your point of view and here is why.
"I mean, get real, if the guys were playing around punching each other on the face, and they punch her you'd be telling me they were just playing around? I really don't think so, they can treat her like one of them but there are certain limitations. "
It seems as though you are promoting special treatment. Essentially that the team should treat her differently because she's a female. From where I stand a team member is a team member. And furthermore if you don't like how you're being treated, male or female, then you have to step up and say something. She didn't, so how is anyone supposed to know? It can't be harassment if you don't know what you are doing is harmful.
"And if you don't want her to be in the room unless you or the other coaches are there, then why don't one of the coaches or yourself stay and supervise them. You have time for the guys but you don't have enough time to help her pursue her dreams or promote girls' wrestling."
Something you should understand about coaching is that it is a job. Its not just a side project, especially for division one coaches. Coaching involves a ton of time and commitment. If your boss told you to put an extra 10 hours a week of work in without pay because there was a very special dream at stake I doubt you'd be too enthused. College coaches get paid to build competetive teams in their respective sport. The womens club wasn't going to build BU's varsity program, so why would any of the coaching staff volunteer their free time? Its not part of the job they are being paid to do.
"I guess what the question is is what have you done as a coach to help her get to the next level and become a champion?"
I can't speak for Carl but it sounds like he's done way more than necessary. He allowed the young woman to come into the varsity room and be a part of the team. She was obviously the least equipped member on the team and I'm guessing would have a hard time finding a drill partner regardless of her gender. Carl didn't have to do anything, nor was he obligated, but did so anyways because he's a good person.
"I don't hear Patricia Miranda complaining about her Stanford team at all"
Cheryl Wong isn't Patricia Miranda. Patricia Miranda is probably the best female wrestler in the country. And maybe she's more mature and speaks up when receiving behavior she doesn't like.
caitlyn
Starting Member
1 Posts Posted - 09/29/2002 : 9:13:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi my name is Caitlyn, and I too would like to speak about this article.
I know Coach Adams. I attended his 24-day intense camp. A camp I might add that taught me the foundation of my wrestling skill. He has always been open to having females at his camps. I attended his camp being the only female among 100 boys; Coach Adams went out of his way to make sure I had a positive experience at his camp.
I think most females involved in the sport of wrestling have at one time or another experienced some form of hazing. I know I have. Hazing of any sort should be reported to the coach so it can be stopped.
I know if the hazing was brought to Coach Adams, It would not of continued. Coach Adams is all about wrestling.
If hazing occurs female athletes must take their complaints to the people who can fix the problem. Taking this to the media without first trying to solve the problem with Coach Adams was wrong.
Coach Adams has always gone out of his way for all wrestlers, male and female.
bubba
Starting Member
15 Posts Posted - 09/30/2002 : 12:40:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reading all this i gotta say, Coach you shoulda just left it alone,if you let her in the room in the first place then that speaks for itself.
You know some guys don't measure up in the wrestling room and when you say " son i think your going to get hurt in here"
thats outta respect for their health and well being PERIOD!
All you could do was make it as safe for her as possable, and i think you have done that. And i'm sure we all know that,she has been on the team for along time,so she shouldn't be wineing about anything and everyone know this. Don't worry about your Reputation Coach! Its Solid in the mens and womens wrestling world!
chewong@bu.edu
Starting Member
USA
1 Posts Posted - 09/30/2002 : 2:09:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A lot of people can reply to this article and imagine it from the outside. As one of two girls on my high school wrestling team, I never had a problem with any of those boys or coaches. If I were still in that position, I might interpret myself in the article as nothing more than a cry baby. It is easy to say that "She should've have said this" from a purely theoretical standpoint.
But, very few people can understand what it is like to be a lone individual on a team of people who treat you as though they can do whatever they want to you and to know that you are supposed to be grateful for that chance. Very few people can understand what it is like to ACTUALLY BE so grateful for that chance that you put up with people who treat you like you have no right to say anything about what they say and do to you because they feel you have no right to be there. And very few people can understand what it is like to do everything within your power to make the best of that chance only to have your attempts shot down.
Here is my attempt to respond to some of the postings, and to clarify my own position.
Cheryl Wong
In response to the idea that:
1. I was ungrateful for the chance to wrestle with a Division I team.
That is simply not true. I was always grateful for that chance, and that is why I kept going to practice even though I was only on the mat for, at best on average, half of the time. Also, I completely understood the worries about risk of injury expressed by Coach Adams.
Again, since I was happy to be allowed in the room in the first place, I did not mind that I was not allowed to wrestle with certain members of the team simply because of their size or strength difference.
I was not, as one might gather from the article, upset at having to wrestle walk-ons: in fact, I was just happy when I got the chance to wrestle on the mat. I was upset, however, at being prevented from finding other girls to wrestle with.
Because I realized that my smaller size and comparative lack of skill were such a hindrance on the team, I did everything I could to work around these two things and become a better wrestler. That is why I went to so many local high schools, other colleges, and BU's own club practices IN ADDITION to the two-hour BU practices - I completely realized and understood that it was up to me to reach the bar, not up to the team to lower the bar because of me.
After three years on the Boston University team, I realized that the only way for me to get enough practice time in and still be on the team would be to find a way to practice with people my own size. So, I tried to start a Women's Wrestling Club, as stated in the article.
Knowing that the possibility of a full-fledged team was slim, I figured this would at least be one way to legitimately find another female wrestler among BU's female undergraduate majority.
The article states that my proposal was rejected because of a lack of interest. However, that is NOT the reason that I was told.
When I tried to start this club, I had:
1. Over 36 signatures in support of starting the club.
2. The support of two BU faculty/staff including the backing of one of the assistant coaches of BU's wrestling team
The previous year, my Sophomore year, not knowing that an official BU approval was need to put up posters in affiliation with any club, I had illegitimately tried to start a Women's Wrestling Club. From the one or two posters I'd put up, five women responded. If one or two posters could generate five positive responses, a legitimate effort could have had an even greater effect.
The only reason that I was given by the administration for not allowing me this one opportunity to legitimately even look for another female wrestler at BU was that Carl Adam's would not allow the wrestling room at Boston University to be used by a Women's Wrestling Club. The Student Activities Office could not allow me to put up posters or take any action organizing a Women's Wrestling Club because the Physical Education and Recreation Department would not support such a club. PERD would not support such a club because it was an insurance liability. PERD maintained that because there were no facilities on campus for such a club to practice in, that such a club was too much of a liability to the school to be allowed.
There were absolutely no facilities available at any time during the entire school year on campus for a Women's Wrestling Club, despite the existence of a wrestling room because, according to Coach Adams:
1. To allow a Women's Wrestling Club to use the wrestling room would increase the risk of the Men's team's exposure to skin diseases.
2. Because of the nature of the sport, members of such a club could get hurt, and thus, such a club would be an insurance liability to the school.
Coach Adams further explained his first reason by saying that he would not allow any club, such as karate, to use the wrestling room because of the increased risk of skin diseases that that would pose, as if wrestling, when women do it, should be grouped into a whole other category of sports. I offered to have the club mop up the mats before and after we used them to no avail.
As for the second reason given, I thought that me, being a woman, and wrestling with men on a men's team was already a liability because of size and strength. I do not understand how providing the opportunity for women to wrestle on a women's team or a women's club can simultaneously pose enough of a liability to prevent it even being given a chance to start.
I was never ungrateful for the chance to wrestle with a Division I team. I just wanted to be able to have a chance to actually wrestle - not ride the bikes in the corner while I watched the boys wrestle, not drill on the dummy, not only practice one or two nights a week during BU club practices when the high school kids came in. I wanted to be able to wrestle - full two hour practices, drilling, situations, live, and then conditioning - six days a week for an entire season. I knew that that was only a far off chance if I continued to depend only the BU's men's team for partners - NOT because they were being unfair, but because that is simply because of the physical nature of the situation - so I did everything I could to make myself better given the constraints I had, but my attempts were rejected.
I was and am always thankful for the chances all the coaches I have worked with gave me to wrestle in their rooms.
[The two main groups of practice partners available to me as a 125-130lbs. female wrestler, then, were: 1. high school kids 2.other women. My being on an NCAA team, I was told, made it illegal for me to practice with high school kids. The only way then, that I could be on the team AND get enough practice time in would be to train with other women.
After three years of being the only female on the roster, it was clear to me that all those girls who had wrestled in high school who were now attending BU were not going to come out of the woodwork on their own, so I attempted to officially go out and find them. But that attempt was shot down.]
2. I was out to "embarrass" the BU team and that I "went" to the reporter.
I did not take my story to the reporter. She came to me and asked me about my experiences on the team, and I just told her. I did not seek out to embarrass the team. In fact, I was surprised that what I said brought about so much ruckus. I merely told the truth as I saw it.
In fact, I even allowed for the fact that I may have misinterpreted events and asked more than once for a chance to have the coaches and wrestlers to come together before the article came out so that any misunderstandings could be ironed out. That attempt too was shot down. "No meeting of any kind" would take place about this, Coach Adams said.
3. I should have said something if I felt something that something was wrong.
I will attempt to sum up the reason why I never said anything about behavior I found objectionable here:
1. I did not know that anything was wrong for a very long time. As the guys keep saying, I thought they were just treating me as "part of the team". Only after the hundredth person I did tell about what was happening told me that "that is sexual harassment" and only after I looked up the criteria for what is considered "sexual harassment" did I begin to think that something was wrong, but I still thought the guys were just "trying to treat me like part of the team".
It is only after I began interacting with other college teams, too, that I realized that not all male-wrestlers act as certain members of the BU did.
2. Oftentimes, the behavior I found objectionable occurred in the presence of Coach Adams.
I reasoned, then, that saying anything to him would be redundant.
This is not to say he knew about it, but only that he was in the room at the time that many of the things I found objectionable happened.
3. If I had taken my complaints to the "higher ups", I would still have to face the team.
Basing my guesses on the past experiences of two and some seasons with them, I figured that if they knew I had something to someone and came back to practice, that they would only treat me worse for it.
They actually proved my suspicions correct at the start of the season last year:
I was sitting in the wrestling room, tying my shoes, when the heavyweight, Eddie Stares, came in and said, "Hey Cheryl, what did you eat for breakfast, anthrax?" I thought that was funny, so I started to laugh. Then he threw a water bottle at my head. Having the experience of freshman year, where the guys threw a tennis ball at me everyday at the start of practice, I knew not to let this type of thing go. So, I said, "Eddie, don't you ever ****ing do that again," and as soon as I finished saying that, he threw another water bottle at my head. This time, again, having experienced what it was like to "just be treated like part of the team" day after day after day while simply trying to become a better wrestler, I went out and told the head trainer what had happened. She brought me to tell Coach Adams.
A few days later, at the start of practice, Chad Grant and Ben Schillens asked me why I did what I did to Eddie. I replied something to the effect of, "Because he was throwing a water bottle at my head, and he would not stop when I told him to." Ben then told me that, "I had no right to say anything about anything that anyone did to me on that team because I had less of a right to be there than anyone else." Furthermore, he said, I was a threat to the team because I, more than anyone else on the team, "could destroy the program."
"Say one of us decided to do something stupid, like, say one of us decided to punch you in the face. We could punch each other in the face all the time [with no repercussion, but] ... you, out of all of us could destroy the program."
"Doesn't that put the onus on you not to do anything stupid?" I replied. I got no answer.
The blatant expression in my face that the team felt that they could do anything they wanted to me because I was supposed to be so grateful for just being allowed in the room to wrestle, was what I got when I spoke up to the persons who were supposed to "fix the problem".
I left because the fact is that by staying, I did not get practice time with the team, I was not allowed to practice with high school kids because of being on the team, and I was not allowed to recruit other females to wrestle with because the Coach found that to be too much of a liability.
To address a statement in the article, "Woman says she quit team after mistreatment", I must note, I never actually said that. I tried to never really cared about what the boys said or did to me so, that "mistreatment" was actually not a factor in why I left, and I did not actually "quit". A more accurate caption would have read, "Woman leaves team so that she can actually wrestle."
Cheryl Wong
Carl48Wrestln
Starting Member
2 Posts Posted - 09/30/2002 : 6:14:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This will be my last post on this topic. I could actually go on for
days disputing claims in Cheryl's last post as well as the article.
I hope Cheryl figures out that you cannot tell half the truth and
and use bits and pieces of a statement to make her sound credible.
If you read her last post ("No meeting of any kind" would take place about this, Coach Adams said.) You would think that we did not have
a chance to meet. If you read my first post, you will see that I tried for 3 months to get Cheryl to meet with me and share her concerns.
It was in the middle of the summer when Cheryl wanted me to pull all of the wrestlers and staff together to meet with her.
At this point things were already out of my hands. I was advised not
to meet with Cheryl. The truth of the matter is that I had already met with her. She finally came to my office when she received the email in my first post.
The readers can decide for themselves whether the facts were twisted just a little bit.
I feel kind of silly doing this. But wrestling teaches us that we have to stay in a good stance and defend ourselves.
What I really said, is in the email below.
Carl
To: chewong@bu.edu
Subject: Re: Invitation to a Meeting
Cc:
Cheryl,
After receiving your most recent email, I have been advised to cut off all communications with you.
I actually wish there was a way that I could reach out and help you. I do not want you to do anymore
harm to yourself.
Re read the email I have sent to you and put your thinking cap on.
The staff and wrestlers will speak to Ms. Sweet if she would like to speak to them,
but there will not be a meeting of any kind.
I wish you well and I hope that you will come to your senses about some of the things you are saying.
Sincerely,
Coach Adams
andersonbar119
Starting Member
USA
4 Posts Posted - 09/30/2002 : 7:02:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cheryl Wong isn't Patricia Miranda. Patricia Miranda is probably the best female wrestler in the country. And maybe she's more mature and speaks up when receiving behavior she doesn't like."
First off, How would you know she doesn't have the potential to become as good as Miranda or even better? Maybe much of Miranda's success has to do with the motivation & encouragement from her fellow teammates & coaches at Stanford. Second of all, speaking your mind has nothing to do with being mature.
"Something you should understand about coaching is that it is a job. Its not just a side project, especially for division one coaches. Coaching involves a ton of time and commitment. If your boss told you to put an extra 10 hours a week of work in without pay because there was a very special dream at stake I doubt you'd be too enthused. College coaches get paid to build competetive teams in their respective sport. The womens club wasn't going to build BU's varsity program, so why would any of the coaching staff volunteer their free time? Its not part of the job they are being paid to do."
You know what? The one thing I don't understand about some people is why are you going to coach if you're not serious about helping the individuals and the team to reach their goals (this is not intended for Coach Adams but at cabrave's statement)? So a coach is there just to get a job done and that's all? Do you know why there are such great h.s. & college wrestling programs (colleges:Iowa,Oklahoma/h.s.:Great Bridge & Easton) out there? They can give alot of thanks to the great coaching staff, coaches who I'm sure put out alot more time "then they are paid for." Did you not say up there coaching involves a ton of time and commitment? That's the key word here "commitment," not only to the team itself but to the individuals. What you probably don't know is that I'm planning on coaching some day, and you're right I probably won't put in an extra 10 hrs to help someone pursue their dreams, rather I'd be willing to put in 100 extra hrs (or however many hrs they need) if they really have the desire to become a champ. If this is your vision of a coach, I'm sure grateful your not mines.
People have different opinions on this article, so let it be. Cause I can also sit here all day and argue.
piccolina
Starting Member
2 Posts Posted - 09/30/2002 : 8:40:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In response to the comment that all teammates were treated equally, I highly doubt they were harassed in the way Cheryl was. It's not comradery or harmless fun when someone is not only repeatedly told they are not wanted and are a hindrance to the achievements of the team but are also meant to feel uncomfortable for wanting to wrestle. I doubt any of the male members of the team were sexually harassed. The lewd comments directed at Cheryl were meant to make her so uncomfortable and beat down her morale so much that she would feel worthless. This type of behavior is a crime, by the way.
MaryEllen
Starting Member
1 Posts Posted - 09/30/2002 : 9:49:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know much about the topic, the rules, or the game itself, but I do know Cheryl Wong, and that she is very passionate about it. To take away something from her that is so meaningful by treating her unfairly, or harassing her, or whatever happened is quite a shame. I support her for doing what she loves despite all that has happened. I hope to see a change with the program.
cabrave
Junior Member
152 Posts Posted - 09/30/2002 : 10:13:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a quick question... How much time has Dan Gable, J. Robinson, John Smith, etc. put into promoting womens wrestling at their schools? Zero as far as I know. Not because they don't support womens or wrestling, but their energies are spent on building their mens programs, which is a BIG job. I'm sure they'll do whatever they can to help individuals on their team succeed, however I'm just as sure they're not going to alter their program or rules in order to help one individual succeed. And that's the point i'm getting at. By the way I do coach, and I do get paid for it...3 months out of the year. The other 8 months I volunteer my time to help boys, girls, and adults become better wrestlers because that's how I like to spend my time. I'm not a better or worse coach for doing it.