News Page
The lady is a sweet intimidator
Cumberland College wrestler is ranked No. 1 in country
By C. Ray Hall 10/6/02
chall@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal
|
Toccara Montgomery, taking on Beth DeRoy in practice (below), loves babies, dogs and wrestling. She came from Cleveland to compete for Cumberland, which has one of six college varsity women's wrestling programs in the country. She won silver at last year's World meet.
|
WILLIAMSBURG, Ky. -- Toccara Montgomery is a mild-mannered sophomore at Cumberland College -- an aspiring grade-school teacher with a soft spot for all things cuddly.
She also has a pierced tongue -- a $25 souvenir of Las Vegas -- that irritates her mother to no end.
Montgomery's favorite things to do: ''Playing with small babies or puppies or dogs.''
She also owns a pit bull. (''Oh, he's a sweetheart,'' she says).
And she wrestles -- so well that she's No. 1 in the country and looks like a lock for the Olympics two years from now.
Another measure of her eminence: Sports Illustrated found its way to Williamsburg.
So, for those of you keeping score at home: Toccara Montgomery is a pierced-tongued, pit-bullfancying wrestler who could beat up your old man in Greco-Roman or freestyle and probably has a date in the Olympics. And she wants to mold the minds of generations yet unborn.
No wonder, then, that some folks find her intimidating.
In the standard collegian's uniform of jeans and Texas-sized Tshirt, Montgomery looks unremarkable -- like one big soft spot all over. Her voice achieves roughly the same ferocity as a chorus of kittens.
But put her in wrestling gear and it's like Clark Kent stepping into a phone booth and emerging as youknow-who. The word ''sculpted'' comes to mind -- as absurdly inadequate. The last word that comes to mind is ''cuddly.''
Wrestlers locked in her smothering embrace feel the same way, no doubt. Last year she won a silver medal in the women's World Championships, wrestling in the 149-pound division. This year, as a 158-pounder, anything short of gold would be disappointing.
She lost twice last year, in 80 matches, she recalls. Or maybe it was 100. She's lost track.
Montgomery, 19, has been wrestling all of four years -- long enough to become the top-rated 158-pound female wrestler in the country. She will be No. 1 in the world soon enough, said her coach, Kip Flanik. Perhaps the coronation will come at next month's World Championships in Greece. If not this year, then next year, Flanik said.
Everybody with a clue expects Montgomery to represent the United States in the 2004 Olympics, when women's wrestling will make its debut.
Montgomery IS one of 1,743 students at Cumberland College, a picturesque Baptist school with vast stretches that look like colonial Williamsburg. On Sundays students dress up for lunch in the Roberts Dining Hall. It's a rule. Other rules involve chapel, community service and two deprivations unimaginable to most college students: no alcohol and no co-ed dorms.
''It's nothing like the colleges you see on TV,'' said Montgomery, whose home is in Cleveland, a 7 1/2 -hour drive and another world away.
|
Cumberland team must travel
Its nearest competitor, Missouri Valley College, is 12 hours away, in Marshall, Mo. Neosho County Community College in Chanute, Kan., is a 14-hour drive. The other varsity programs are Minnesota-Morris, Pacific University in Forest Grove, Ore. and Menlo College in Atherton, Calif. Only two states -- Texas and Hawaii -- have high school girls' wrestling. In the rest of the country, girls compete on boys' teams. Cumberland coach Kip Flanik estimated there are 5,000 girls wrestling in American high schools -- but only a handful in Kentucky. There are 100-150 college wrestlers, he said. Eighteen wrestle for Cumberland, which will open its season next weekend at the Mort Geller Open in Meadville, Pa. Why does Cumberland have a wrestling team? The college president, James Taylor, suggested the idea in the late 1990s. ''We already had female judo, and we thought that (wrestling) was a niche we could carve out where we could be probably a national contender,'' Taylor said. ''I thought it was a place where we could be outstanding, that we wouldn't have to spend a great deal of money, and I also thought it could provide for gender equity.'' -- C. Ray Hall |
Even in a cozy place such as Cumberland, where friendliness seems almost obsessive, some folks keep their distance from a world-class wrestler -- looking at her as more pit bull than sweetheart.
''I think it's kind of intimidating for people, especially if they don't know me,'' she said. ''It's like, 'Wow, you wrestle.'
''I've actually had guys on campus say, 'You know, I really wanted to talk to you or call you on the phone, but I was scared you would like beat me up. . . .'
''I'm like whooo. And I talk to them: 'Why would I just beat you up out of the blue for no reason at all?'
''I think it's definitely kind of intimidating for people -- not just guys, either. Some girls are intimidated. I guess people think maybe I might be a mean or violent person or something like that, when it's definitely not that case at all. I mean, I'm more shy than I am anything else.''
Sarah Hayes, the lone senior among Cumberland's 18 women wrestlers, said Montgomery ''looks so intimidating on the outside, but once you get to know her, she's nice, she's funny, she's really playful, very intelligent, everything that you wouldn't expect an athlete to be.''
(Hayes is somewhat unexpected herself: She's majoring in chemistry with a minor in math.)
''She's got to be the nicest girl I've ever met,'' Hayes said. ''She's got so many facets to her personality that you wouldn't expect.''
And there is the imposing physique, on a 5-foot-7 frame.
''She's huge,'' Hayes said. ''She has these gigantic guns. . .''
By which she means arms.
There IS heavy -- and heavy-hearted -- irony in the mention of ''guns.''
When Toccara was 15, her father, Paul, shot two drug dealers -- in selfdefense, he said. A jury didn't believe him: He is serving 33 years to life in prison for double homicide.
''Toccara doesn't like to talk about her father's situation,'' said Flanik, who has been her coach and mentor since their days at East Tech High School in Cleveland.
Long before he met Montgomery, Flanik already knew too much about homicide. When he was 14, his father was shot to death by a street robber.
Flanik and Montgomery have grown so close in the past four years that their relationship seems familial -- maybe even fated. They are bound by bloodshed, and by lost fathers. Or so it seems.
It doesn't seem that way to Flanik, who entertains no such excursions into pop psychology.
''Toccara's relationship was very good with her father, while mine was not,'' he said. ''I had a very abusive, alcoholic father who was very bad to me and my family. I don't think that had anything to do with me bonding with Toccara.
''Toccara sort of fits a pattern of kids I like to work with -- good kids in rough situations.''
Last year Flanik told the Cleveland Plain Dealer about the depths of his father's abuse and his own alienation from the man. When his father died, Flanik recalled, it was one of the happiest days of his young life. Which surely must have made Flanik one of the most melancholy 14-year-olds imaginable.
Such horrors might make wrestling seem irrelevant. Instead, wrestling became a vital connection for Flanik and Montgomery. Their lives intersected four years ago when he was coaching at East Tech. She was a 15year-old who decided to add wrestling to a sports resume brimming with basketball, volleyball and softball.
At East Tech, he saw Montgomery bloom -- gradually. She lost regularly to boys. But she wouldn't give up. She quit all her other sports to concentrate on wrestling. After years of finger-pointing in team sports, she liked the notion that, in wrestling, the credit or blame was hers alone.
Flanik took her to tournaments in Canada, where there were so many female competitors she could wrestle a dozen times in a weekend. By the end of her senior year, she was formidable. She won the 149-pound class at a national tournament in Las Vegas.
To celebrate, she got the tonguepiercing -- a $25 job in Vegas that would cost at least $60 back in Cleveland. Her mother, Tara, hit the roof. (Today, the only thing hitting a roof is the stainless steel ball in Toccara's tongue, brushing the roof of her mouth.)
For female wrestlers, as a rule, colleges are not extending open arms. There are only six varsity programs in the country, according to the U.S. Girls' Wrestling Association. Flanik and Montgomery visited Cumberland, which offers partial scholarships to wrestlers. They liked what they saw and stayed.
The team trains in an aged gym whose many windows seem somehow to gather more darkness than light.
At a recent practice, Flanik was showing his disciples the way and the light:
''The only two reasons you miss class,'' he said in an irritated tone, ''are if you are at a tournament -- or you are dead.''
Flanik is dispensing his wisdom in Williamsburg because of events that started seven years ago. At the time he was an assistant coach at Cleveland Heights High School, wondering if he could abide girl wrestlers.
Cumberland decided to start a men's wrestling team. For a coach, it hired Jess Wilder, a graduate assistant at Carson-Newman in Jefferson City, Tenn.
Three years later Wilder started the women's program, at the behest of the school president, James Taylor.
Last year Wilder hired Flanik to coach the women's team. When you get Flanik, you get Montgomery -- and vice versa. As a foundation for a program, Montgomery is about as sturdy as it gets.
''We just got lucky,'' Wilder said. ''We got a good person with a great athlete.''
Flanik said Montgomery is ''tremendously strong. She's very quick, she's very athletic and bottom line, it's her work ethic. . . . She trains very hard.''
Montgomery's work ethic runs counter to wrestling wisdom. Her impressive physique didn't come from weightlifting, which she doesn't do at all. Or from running, which she does only grudgingly.
''It's just a natural build,'' she said. ''I do pushups and things like that, but that's as far as it goes.
''I try to run as little as possible. Kip thinks I should run, but what he says is running gets you in shape for running, and wrestling gets you in shape for wrestling. So I just spend as much of my time in the wrestling room as possible.''
Being a wrestler, she also starves intermittently -- forgoing favorite foods to make weight.
''To tell a teen-ager, or a college student, you can't eat pizza,'' she said, ruefully, ''should be against the law.''
Montgomery has 17 teammates. Not one is from Kentucky. Or from any place like Kentucky, it seems.
''I come from Boulder, Colo., which is the most liberal place on Earth -- except for maybe Berkeley,'' Hayes said. ''It took me so long to adjust. I had culture shock so bad.''
In her second year, Montgomery still is feeling the culture shock.
Back home, she said, ''there was always something to do. In Williamsburg, you're lucky if there's something to do. . . . You can only go to a movie so many times.''
Back in Cleveland, Toccara's mom is a cook at a Salvation Army shelter for women and children. Tara's other child, 10-year-old Patrick, is enthusiastic about Toccara's wrestling.
''He loves it,'' she said. ''I was in Sports Illustrated for Kids one time and he was telling everybody, 'This is my sister.' Kids didn't believe him, so he made me come to school one day.
''He asks me like if I would ever be in the WWF, but I told him I wouldn't do it.''
Why would she disdain the fame and riches of pro wrestling?
''I just think it's more degrading for women than it is men, because they're exploiting their looks more so than their athletic ability,'' she said. ''That's not how I want to be looked at.''
---------------------------------------------------------
JJHuddle » Wrestling » If a wrestling coach is female...
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 08:16 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, I'm probably jumping the gun, but I was wondering if any other team has an exceptional number of girls out. I have 9 out for my team (45 total), and would like nothing more than to let them dual against anothe "girls" squad at least once. I realize I will probably lose a few, but will probbaly carry 6 all year. Only two will be challenging for varsity spots, with one of those a long shot, but most of these girls are athletes. I have nothing against girl-boy matches, but thought this would be a nice change for them, as a few aspire to compete on college womens' teams.
Fighting Title IX the Only Way I Know How,
KF150
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 347
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 10:01 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ttt
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2561
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 10:16 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
knightflyer150...Texas seperates boys/girls wrestling.
bone crusher
Varsity
Location: alliance.....but currently in columbus!!!
Post Number: 174
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 02:32 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kinghtflyer
just curious what school you coach?
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2577
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 05:52 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bone crusher....If you want to know that....ask knightflyer150 to email you.... that way...he doesn't have to give up his identity if he chooses not to.
wldcat25
Varsity
Location: mogadore
Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 08:09 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
girls shouldnt wrestle at all. wrestling is a guys sport and girls should just stay out of it.
Mat_rat
Varsity
Location: Tiffin, Ohio
Post Number: 150
Registered: 08-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:52 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wildcat25- title 9 proponets love comments like that.
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 349
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 03:33 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for you opinion, wildcat25. I'll pass on your comments to my 135 pound girl who wrestled all summer, benches 190 and is a 3.8 student. Did I mention her goal is to make varsity by her senior year then wrestle at a women's college team? I'm sure she'll agree with you close-minded remarks, supported by no actual argument, and quit the sport immediately. When should she have your dinner on the table?
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 03:35 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bone Crusher,
post your e-mail and I'll tell you where I coach. it is a Columbus City School.
NoviWrestler
Varsity
Location: Bexley, Ohio USA
Post Number: 40
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 04:12 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wldcat25,
Please provide some facts to support your claim that wrestling should be only for boys?
sportsbud
Varsity
Location: Eastern Coast, OH
Post Number: 151
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 08:05 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can girls plan to compete in college in wrestling? I know some colleges in Ohio have girl's wrestling teams. Are there any High Schools in Ohio with girl's teams?
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 351
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 08:55 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there are numerous college women's varsity and club teams across the US and Canada. Most states (except Texas and Hawaii) have girls compete on boys teams. I think if a girl can go .500 or better on a boys team, she can be a decent female competitor. Not to slam them, just the facts.
Taz
Varsity
Location: Marion, Oh
Post Number: 190
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:01 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hat off to you knightflyer150. Open minded people like you will bring an end to title 9.
wrestlingchic
Varsity
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 09:59 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that girls should wrestle. I however do not wrestle i wanted to but my father would not let me. I know girls that wrestle,they are good to.When i read some of the things on hear about girl wrestling girls yes that would be a good thing,HOWEVER there are not enough girs that wrestle on high school levels.I am a huge fan of the sport but i would never go out there now and do it. I think the girls that go out there and wrestle are some of the strongest people not only physical but they have to deal with what the male teammates thing of them as well as there coaches.I know that if a girl "puts her hands in the wrong place" that it might be embarssing to the guy. But you have to think about this guys do it to other guys. To me having a girl "put there hands in the wrong place" would be better then a guy. This is my opinion and i am new at this but this is what i belive.
comet54
Varsity
Post Number: 71
Registered: 07-2001
Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 11:18 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i just dont see how a father could watch his daughter wrestle against a guy?? how you could enjoy that?? and plus it would make me feel uncomfortable to have to wrestle a girl i dont think they should be out there against the opposite sex i have seen a girl from southview beat a kid and everyone there was cheering and yelling that kid had to not want to live for that day
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 367
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 11:22 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That girl from Southview is also mentioned as a top freshman recruit on the 2002-03 women's college wrestling scene.
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2813
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 11:25 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrestlingchic...Welcome to JJ's!
(Message edited by refman on October 13, 2002)
vballpaser14
Varsity
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.
Post Number: 143
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 03:07 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you wresltingchic, I would wrestle to if my dad would let me. And guys you complain about haveing to wrestle a girl and say that you feel uncomfortable, but whats the difference if we are touching you out on the mat or if you guys are buggin us some other time...if you know what I mean. And besides that most women are just as strong as men, so if they can hang with it why put them down...and if you are scared of losing to a person that just so happenes to be a female...its not the end of the world just get up and try and try again, until you can try no more! And good luck to all the girls that do wrestle...
knightflyer150...if you need someone to fill in one of the classes under 119 let me know ill make my dad bring me down to wrestle in a dual vs. another girl
AnimalsMom
All Star
Location: Columbus,Ohio,USA
Post Number: 1435
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 05:56 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay gals, the sad thing is that in the State of Ohio wrestling is so full of testosterone that guys are afraid to wrestle girls.(Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I am gonna hear about that comment, but the truth hurts doesn't it? LOL) They are scared that they will loose to a girl. Over my years of being a "wrestling mom" I have seen this more than once. All the "what ifs" come out. The what if I loose, what will my team mates say? What if I loose? Will I ever live it down?? So you see, its not that they are looking at going against another skilled wrestler, they look at it as loosing to a "GIRL"
Oh knightflyer150,
You asked in another post about Animal. He did cut his hair. (Not by choice, Uncle Sam told him he had to) The only wrestling he is getting in right now is in training. He is going to try out for Uncle Sam's team, but he has a few months of other stuff to do first.
Sm119
All American
Location: St.Marys ohio, 31-7!!
Post Number: 465
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 09:19 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IF they don't have a girls team let them wrestle.. I remember seeing a girl beat a kid that teched me at an open tourney. Boy was i glad i lost to that kid after that lol. Its no big deal however losing to a girl. A pretty strong kid on our team who wasnt too bad lost to a female in a j.v tourney and i think ended up quiting because of people ripping on him. When ifound out the kid that made fun of him(he wasnt very good himself) I got in his face about it, Winning,Losing,Draw.. It doesnt matter if they are better than you it should be no big deal, even though guys will be made fun of. Girls that get out there have my respect no matter how good or bad they are.
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 369
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 09:46 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is a sport that measures you by if you can take it: indiv. competition, the practices, weight loss, mental battles. If you can do that, in my opinion, you are already tougher than most other athletes.
Hip Ripper
Varsity
Location: Dublin, Ohio USA
Post Number: 97
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 12:22 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knightflyer...I'm just up the road from you a ways, and not one coach has followed through with offers to coach me, after I show up. I've been completely on my own. Maybe it's because I'm 34, & a wrestler's mom. No coach wants to take me on. I may be 34, but I bench 130+, weigh 128, do 5K's, and hit the mats with my daughter, who has wrestled since she could crawl. My son was a state qualifier last year as a junior.
I get NO mat time. Would I be welcome at your school to drill, etc.? E-mail me at: mommahipripper@yahoo.com Thanks tons
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 371
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 10:26 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hipripper,
check your e-mail
NoviWrestler
Varsity
Location: Bexley, Ohio USA
Post Number: 50
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 08:23 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
knightflyer150,
The thing to do would be to host a regional girls invitational. Send mail to all schools with wrestling programs in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kenteucky, West Virginia, and maybe Tennessee.
Maybe work something with CSG, it might be something of the feminist sort they might like.
Hip Ripper
Varsity
Location: Dublin, Ohio USA
Post Number: 100
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 06:35 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
knightflyer150....check YOUR e-mail....you ready for this? Let's roll! mommahip.
vballpaser14
Varsity
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.
Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 - 10:35 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, Knightflyer150 have an all girls invitational...that could end up making womens wrestling huge. I really hope you do this, and make sure you let be know if you do. Butterfli141@aol.com
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 08:13 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
does anyone think that girls should wrestle? i dont i think that wrestling is a stictly guys sport. i dont know what everyone else thinks but i hope everone agrees with me on this one.
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2581
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 08:42 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This issue has been gone over time and time again.
Yes they should.
matrat
Varsity
Location: Central Ohio
Post Number: 41
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:03 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely!
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 204
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:38 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an opinion on this for what it's worth.
Up to a certain age, no problem. Let them wrestle with the boys. Once the differences in the gender become obvious, not a good situation. By no means am I saying that they can't compete, because they can. I've seen some girls that can put a whooping on any boy, any time. I just think that after a certain age it no longer should be allowed. If they want to wrestle and there is enough interest there, start a group of girls only. Can a boy go out for girls volleyball in high school simply because there is no guys volleyball? Let them play football if they want and are good enough to. It is a totally different sport. Too much contact in wrestling. It just ain't right. Not girl bashing, just my opinion and it has nothing to do with it being a "man's sport".
Tball
All American
Location: Buckeye Country, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 230
Registered: 08-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:43 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Rocket, If I had a girl that wanted to wrestle I would let her until Jr. High. At that point I think they should be separated.
Rocketeer
All American
Location: Toledo Area
Post Number: 444
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:10 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 2004, the IOC, in all their wisdom, has included Women’s Wrestling as an Olympic Sport. Internationally, there are women that enjoy this sport as much as men. In the USA, women have proven to the entire wrestling community, they have the ability and everything else necessary to compete in this sport. In Ohio, we have two standouts already competing in international competition. Jessica Shirley and Tacarra Montgomery. They both wrestle, as a varsity sport, at Cumberland College. Tacarra earned a gold medal in the last World Championships. I hope Rocketmania and Tball both are qualifying their opinions regarding girls competing against men. But, even then, why is it not a "good situation" Rocketmania? When guys wrestle guys, they put their hands on the other guy’s privates, does that make them •••? If a guy would put his hand on a woman’s private parts, would that split second "feel" give either one pleasure? Would it be "rude"? As far as the girls competing in high school against guys, why not let them? At a regional USA Wrestling tournament at LaCrosse, Wisc. last year, a girl beat a guy that took third at state. She teched him in the second period. A better wrestler won that match.
Tball, would you tell your daughter if she excelled at the Jr. High State Tournament that she had to quit the following year? As everyone has stated, this is just their opinion. I too, am stating mine. Unfortunately, we don't have enough 'fathers' on here to get their opinions. Those opinions, along with that of the female wrestlers, are what we really need on this topic.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 205
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:29 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rocketeer, how'd I know that you would have something to spout off about? As stated in my posting, it was only my opinion and I was not by any means questioning any girls ability to compete. No one mentioned a sense of pleasure either. I simply stated that I do not believe it to be appropriate. Now here's a thought. Maybe you would not have so much time to spend looking up rules, regulations, facts and figures to throw into everyone's face that has a different opinion than your's if you actually worked for a living. Get a job! Quit living off the system. Now who started trouble this time?
BuchtelBadBoy
Varsity
Location: akron oh
Post Number: 70
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:43 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if girls want to wrestle send em to my school. i answer that question with an imfatic YES!
Rocketeer
All American
Location: Toledo Area
Post Number: 445
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:15 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rocketmania,
I have no idea why you're so upset or why you're attempting to start trouble. You’re very apparently upset about anything I post and want to make it personal. Why would you say, "spout off"? In my post, I too, was just stating my opinion and I said that. Don't I have that right? And, further in your post you said "who said anything about pleasure". Well, I did, and it was a question, not a comment. I brought it up since that's what has been said in many, many opinions. Is that wrong to say what's being said? I don't question your beliefs on what's appropriate and what's not. I never questioned that in any of my posts. My post was totally factual and my personal opinion. I always post things in a positive manner, even that which I don’t agree. I never personally ‘blasted’ anyone or their opinion. Giving facts and figures, rules and regulations is wrong? And, when have I “thrown them in everyone’s face”? Lastly, please don't worry about what I do, when I do it and my job. You're attacking me personally, just out of frustration and that’s very, very sad.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 206
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:28 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Granted there are very few all girls wrestling programs if any. I am in no way an expert on this. My question is this; For example:
If there is no boy's volleyball program, should boys be allowed to join the girls volleyball program? If yes, what will then happen to the girls volleyball program? You would have some teams with all girls and some teams with half girls, half boys. Or maybe all boys. Where do you set the limits? I don't have the answer to girls wanting to wrestle. I watch some of the Womens championships and there are some great women wreslters out there. And yes, they are quite capable of competing with the boys and beating them. I still don't think it is right. It has nothing to do with their ability. The only thing that I am "qualifying" my opinion on is just that, my opinion. If there is enough interest in the girls wrestling at the high school level, start a program for just that. If not, so be it. I'll bet you any girls volleyball coach would love to see some 6'4" boys want to go out for the girls volleyball team.
(Message edited by ROCKETMANIA on October 01, 2002)
Tball
All American
Location: Buckeye Country, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 232
Registered: 08-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:30 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rocketeer, writing posts on JJ is a sickness for me,,I really didn't want to perpetuate this topic any more but I just couldn't help myself. From this point on I vow to never post to another "girl wrestling" thread again. By the way, I am a coach and have coached girls before, I have a good understanding of the issues involved here. In my opinion we don't need more fathers or female wrestlers to post their opinions on here what we need to do is kill this topic all together, all those in favor say “I”.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 207
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:41 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rocketeer, you addressed your comments and questions towards me. Refer to your own posting. Therefore I felt obliged to respond. Frustration no, resentment and lack of respect,yes. However, I did not go looking for trouble on this post like you had once stated to be my only purpose on here. I was simply giving my opinion to wldcat25's question. Please don't quote to me "your right's". I have no interest in hearing them. Factual and personal opinions are two different things. People with no morales are very, very sad.
Rocketeer
All American
Location: Toledo Area
Post Number: 446
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:42 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tball,
Your imput is always appreciated on JJ. I wasn't questioning your opinion, only to ask you to qualify it. My question to you was, "would you let your daughter compete in high school if she excelled in Jr. High". And, what about in college? And lastly, she really wanted to compete.
CROSSFACE
All American
Location: Graytown, Ohio
Post Number: 228
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 01:40 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go ahead, let them wrestle, and let the men join the Womens volleyball team...as well. If this is not good enough, then form a womens team at the high school level.
We can even the playing field so much that eventually we lead down the way of everybody being able to do anything they want, whenever they want. Why not play 3 fall sports, you might be a gifted athlete...no need to chose.
I am a little old school....men and women are in fact equal, but there are things men should and should not do, as well as women.
Rocketeer, dont take this literally, but if your son really really wanted to be a cross-dresser, and he was good at it...would you let him?
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2590
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 02:14 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROCKETMANIA.....This is not a place to vent personal attacks against anyone. If you don't like a comment, or a post....argue the point...stick to the subject. Getting personal is a nono. You have been warned.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 210
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 02:25 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Refman, I agree with what you are saying, but rules need to work both ways. Stating that I only come on here to "only stir things up" and "cause trouble" is also a personal attack. But no warning was issued then. I will heed your warning. I only ask for the same consideration in return.
Crossface, that is the point I was trying to make with my original posting. There has to be a set of standards in all sports, whether for boys or for girls. If not, the whole system breaks down and you end up with chaos. Volleyball is just the example that comes to mind because it is a predominantly girls sport in high school. If you allow boys in, would it remain fair. If you don't allow boys in volleyball but allow girls in wrestling, is that fair?
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 348
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 03:28 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have posted many times before on this topic. I think it is fine, provided there is no equivalent team for just girls. I think any uncomfortable situation is far outweighed by the benefits of self-esteem, athleticism and love of the greatest sport ever.
As far as fear over losing to a girl, I don't know what to say. As long as we continue to enforce the stigma attached to this, it will make male wrestlers sick with worry.
I have girls join our high school team (9 this year out of 54). As posted in another topic, only two will even challenge for varsity and both are long shots. The fact is, these are all better students, athletes and young women b/c of this sport. Let's support it and suppress our insecurities, recogniziing how much individual good it does for the athlete.
Allseasons
Varsity
Post Number: 67
Registered: 09-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 04:10 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rocketmania
I went to a womens wrestling match Friday night in Windsor. I loved it! If women want to wrestle I'll pay to see that.
(Message edited by Allseasons on October 01, 2002)
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 212
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 04:16 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allseasons,
Ummm, I don't think that is the kind of wrestling that we are talking about but hey, I'm game. I'm just upset that you didn't ask me to come along. Now my feelings are truly hurt. Now I am a sad, sad person.
(Message edited by ROCKETMANIA on October 01, 2002)
wrestlin4oms
Varsity
Location: ontario
Post Number: 149
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 04:41 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think that girls should be aloowed to wrestle but i an all girl league or if they wrestle wrestle only girls but other than that no i dont think they should be allowed to wrestle.
cvwrestle
All American
Post Number: 368
Registered: 08-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 04:45 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't care if they do really.. its at there own risk... I'm not gonna change my style becuz its a girl.. I'm just going to wrestle even harder!
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 16
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 05:01 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women wrestling other women is fine. Women wrestling boys is DEFINATELY a bad thing. Way to many issues there. Men and women are seperated in every other sport why would wrestling, a sport with arguably the most physical contact, be any different.
The physical differences between men and women preclude them from competing in this sport.
Twizzler
Varsity
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 05:08 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OKAY, Here is a mothers opinion! If a girl wants to wrestle so be it, chances are she really won't hang with it long. If she is really capable of wrestling with boys let her. Most coaches I believe (at least I would hope) would tell the girl if she is not at the level of the boys to prevent injury or just plain embarassment and encourage her to go onto a girls team. If it was my daughter and she had an interest in wrestling (which she does not at the present time) I would allow her to try it. If she was really good and could keep up with the boys I would let her continue on with as long as she wants to. I think a parent with wrestlers would know when enough is enough especially for a girl. I also believe that if my daugther wanted to wrestle, she could be very good at it, having older awesome brothers that wrestle, a great father for a coach and the many other coaches that come from our school, she could make a lot of boys cry.
Rocketeer,
As far as that split second "feel", since I come from mostly a male household I know what you men think. I don't believe it would be the girls intentions but it could certainly be the boys!
Also, you seem to be up on the girls wrestling since you stated some names. I only have heard of one girl coming from Oak Harbor going to Kentucky/Tennessee? (Sorry, I don't remember exactly where she went). Do you have any updates on her? Haven't heard about her lately? Still wrestling? Doing well?
Rocketmania
Take it easy, wouldn't want to see you go - you keep it interesting on here.
Sorry Tball, I had to post and I am not nor ever was a girl wrestler, just a wrestlers mom. "I"
Allseasons
Is it every 15 or 5 seconds?
(Message edited by Twizzler on October 01, 2002)
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 214
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 06:41 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twizzler, where have you been hiding? Haven't heard from you forever. Although I still do not feel it is right at the high school level, I respect your comments a lot. Especially since it seems you happen to or may in the future being living what we are discussing. Possibly. Who know? Anyway, it's good to hear a mother's point of view. Question for ya. So all is equal in the world of men and women, how would you propose we handle the volleyball issue, for example? No double standards. Good luck.
P.S. I'll lighten up a little but only because you asked me to.
P.S.S. Allseason, every 15 to 5 seconds???? You're slipping, pal.
tido112
All American
Location: shelby
Post Number: 247
Registered: 05-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 08:12 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think girls should be able to wrestle if they want to! Sure it is a tough sport but that just proves to alot of people that girls who go out for wrestling are defintley tough. I prolly wouldn't like wrestling a girl but i don't see why they couldn't wrestle!!
fan_of_the_hous
All American
Location: Coshocton, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 220
Registered: 09-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 08:26 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let girls wrestle on the boys wrestling team when the boys can play on the girls volleyball team!
(Message edited by fan_of_the_hous on October 01, 2002)
Pirate8
Varsity
Post Number: 43
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:41 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my opinion as a wrestler is no they shouldnt because its pretty hard to overcome the mental state of mind to actually wrestle a girl there is WAY more pressure than normal. ask any wrestler and most will agree that they would never want to wrestle a girl, theres way too much on the line including pride, confidence, reputation. cuz seriously if u lose to a girl EVERYBODY cares and makes fun of u and everything but if u beat a girl, the reaction is more like "big deal u beat a GIRL" its not right
Taz
Varsity
Location: Marion, Oh
Post Number: 185
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:50 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they should. Where was all this action on the thread about title 9? Alot of the post I read show that small minded people have small minded ways. Did no one go to reigonal in Dayton 2yrs ago? My 14 and 11 year olds have wrestled girls since they started wrestling. Won some lost some, and they are no worse off from it. If we want are sport to move ahead we must let it.
wrestle00
Varsity
Location: Wapakoneta, OH 45888
Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:13 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would have to say there is Absolutely no way that our daughter would wrestle. She grew up with two older and one younger brothers and has watched wrestling matches since she could walk. Does she know a lot about wrestling oh yeah she does. But somewhere around Jr. High she started to want to go to the wrestling meets for entirely differant reasons. She has been a stat girl and knows what is going on when someone is wrestling. But sorry we enjoy watching our boys wrestling but never would we allow her!!
OhioFlamer02
Varsity
Location: U.S.A.
Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:38 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion girls wrestle girls. Another factor not to bash the girls this is just my opinion, but 'm pretty sure that statistics would back me up on this, if a girl would wrestle a guy at the same level of competition the guy would win. For instance an olympic level male wrestler vs. a female olympic level wrestler... who would win?
QT
All Star
Location: Van Wert, OH
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 02-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:08 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NO
RedTillDead
Varsity
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 04:16 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROCKETMANIA, I'm assuming from the name your from Oak Harbor and I can understand why you wouldn't want girls to wrestle.As you will recall Bellevue has a girl on the roster she wrestled JV and PINNED her Oak Harbor opponent last year! I don't know about volleyball but a couple of years ago in Ohio a boy went to court and won a case allowing him to play girls field hockey.So I guess the moral of this story is be carefull what you wish for it might happen. For the record in my opinion the great thing about wrestling is it transcends gender and bias/prejudice if you work hard enough and win the challenges you compete. Anyone who has wrestled knows it takes alot of n_ _ _ s to compete at the high school level and if theres girls out there that have them...well more power to them.
Twizzler
Varsity
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 06:09 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rocketmania
I really doubt that I will ever be living this discussion, personally I hope she attends wrestling matches for the same reason "wrestle00" daughter(s) did and become a stat.
As far as boys playing on a girls volleyball team. I think if a boy really wanted to push the issue on that, that there would be enough following to form a boys volleyball team. There are alot of men/boys that play volleyball (mostly on adult leagues) versus wrestling at any level. Men certainly out weigh the women/girls in that sport. I really think that wrestling is a mans sport, especially in high school, volleyball is both just not at the high school level yet.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 215
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 06:33 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a thought. If girls will be on the boys wrestling team and boys will be on the girls volleyball or field hockey, what's the sense of having boys and girls sports? Why not do away with all the labeling of boys and girls teams. We can call them co-ed teams. One wrestling, one tennis, one swimming, one golf, one football, one volleyball, one basketball, right on down the list. No division at all. Equality throughout. Let the best "person" play the position, whether it be boy or girls. If the boy wants to play on the predominantly girls team, he will need to excel in that sport. If the girl wants to win a spot on the team, she will need to be the best of the best. Just think of the money the schools will save. And all will be equal and fair. How many girls out there would agree to wanting to see this take place?
Red, yes, I am. Yes, I remember the match. If you think that is my reasoning for my opinions on this matter, you have missed the point. Over the years I have seen boys and girls wrestle on several occassions. Some times the boys win, some times the girl wins. I have never doubted a girls ability to win a wrestling match. They can and do. Some girls excel quite well in wrestling. Their ability is not the issue. Ability would take care of itself on the mat.
(Message edited by ROCKETMANIA on October 02, 2002)
cheesybiscuits
Varsity
Post Number: 67
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:30 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well of course, it would be against there rights if they were not allowed. But I have had to wrestle a couple of girls and when I wrestle them I am terrified of hurting them. So I take it easy.
cheesybiscuits
Varsity
Post Number: 68
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:31 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hott girls! Anytime
GrapFan
Varsity
Post Number: 135
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:54 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would make me so proud to say...I'd like you to meet my daughter, she wrestles heavy weight!
atowngrappler91
Varsity
Post Number: 38
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:59 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rocketmania good point. When do men get to play on the women's volley ball team? There was no men's volley ball team at my high school but I didnt get to play why should they get to wrestle? I am for them wrestling in their own leagues not against men. They just are not competitive enough to compete against men. Have you ever heard of a woman winning a tournament that men were in it? Has there ever been a woman qualify for state in oh? even d3 ohio?
tufenuf
Varsity
Post Number: 75
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 01:50 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know there has been a few girls make it to districts...but watch out for little Emily Smith from I believe the Westshore Team...she kicks butt...have seen her win way more than she has lost competing against boys.
Twizzler
Varsity
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:08 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tufenuf
Little Emily Smith has taken on one of my boys and it wasn't pretty, he took it hard for a long time. We have seen her enter her age and the age above her often and most of the time places in both. She is an excellent girl wrestler. It will be interesting to see how far and where she goes.
tufenuf
Varsity
Post Number: 77
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:56 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I last saw Smith in Aug at the Ohio State Fair, she was wrestling in the boys division although they also had a separate girls division...one of the coaches in her corner was Toccara Montgomery, 2001 World Freestyle silver medalist.
Also, in 2001, Jessi Shirley from Galion became the first girl in Ohio to ever win a match at District...with a pin in 1:18!!
dwccrew
All Star
Location: Springfield, USA(founded by jebadiah springfield)
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 05-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 03:08 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
girls want to wrestle, then they should start their own league. if a guy wanted to play in a girl's sport tey would never allow it. so girl's should get together and form high school girl's wrestling teams.
atowngrappler91
Varsity
Post Number: 41
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 03:12 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No one sad anything about a girl making it to state in Ohio I guess I was right they never have made it to state in Ohio
RedTillDead
Varsity
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 06:47 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tufenuf I forgot about her she is the real deal.I watched little Emily whip butt in 2 age divisions in 1 biddy tourny last year.I would have her on my team anytime.
newlondon189
Varsity
Location: New London
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 07:44 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont know about all this girl thing because ya feel deiffernt out their wrestling a gilr but then again their are girls that rip it up and they should stick with it but the bigger girls from like 150 up should stay out of a singlet.and if they just •••• to high heaven yeah they shouldnt wrestle but the ones that will go somewhere should be allowed in total agreement.but some bigger girls and skinny girls go out just for the attention. but i dont know i know guys at are school tried out for the volleyball team and woudnt let them but yet they will let them wrestle and thats not cool. other then that if their good enough to wrestle stay with it. i know some guys that shouldnt wrestle either that just lose every match so i dont think they should wrestle either
brfootball61
Varsity
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 09:23 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
absolutely yes... and with the guys not bein able to play volleyball.. if ur a wrestler then y would u wanna play volleyball... play football or run x-c
the champ
Varsity
Location: canton
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 09:46 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no.
pioneer_54_2006
Varsity
Location: Adelphi
Post Number: 67
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 09:54 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think if they can handle it let em wrestle and the guys volleyball part well thas jus a buncha bs i dont get y guys can t play vball on the girls team if i didnt play football id b pissed haha but ive seen girls on a boys baseball team but they wont let guys on the volleyball team thas bs haha
Taz
Varsity
Location: Marion, Oh
Post Number: 187
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:38 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emily Smith is a prime example of a great wrestler, and a wonderful young lady. She wrestles all three styles, and is a contender in all three.
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 352
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:31 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why is everyone so threatened? Let the women compete. (yippee. I'm the last post)
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 218
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 06:17 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No you are not.
I was out of town, and will be again, so I missed the fun in the "Should girls wrestle" topic.
Having been involved with soccer, a sport that is still "establishing" itself, I think there are some analogies. Many schools now have boys soccer programs. More schools are adding girls soccer programs. However, for those schools that do not have a girls team, the ladies must try out for the boys team. As interest among the girls increases, they are able to form their own teams.
The fact is that genetically males are stronger and quicker, statistically speaking. Occasionally, you see women able to compete successfully on male teams. However, as having weight classes in wrestling, gender separated teams allow women to compete on a level field. It provides more opportunities for ladies to participate in sports, as Rocketmania's hyperbole would have you overlook.
With Title IX, college and high school wrestling programs have been on the decline. Perhaps the bet way to reverse the trend would be to encourage female participation. Until enough interest is generated for schools to provide gender separate teams, females participating on "co-ed" wrestling teams is the only option. By having weight classes, there is some equality for the most athletic females.
About the "sexuality" thing, it is the coaches' and referees' reasonability to ensure sportsman like behavior of all wrestlers. Also, consider that in all of these years of the sport, it is certainty that homosexual males have participated. Remember that guy that did a high-crotch on you last season?
My daughter is not interested, but if she was, I would allow her to wrestle.
eaglenest
Varsity
Post Number: 32
Registered: 07-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 09:20 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel it is absolutely wrong bor a male to be wrestling a female at the high school level or higher. Let's be honest...if you walked into a room and saw a high school guy and girl entwined as you would see in a wrestling match, one would hope you would put a stop to it and do your absolute best toprevent it from happening again. That is what a responsible adult would do. This nonsense of girls wrestling guys, even at the middle school level need to stop. Form girls teams!
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 01:39 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Females participating in wrestling will have absolutely no effect on Title IX. Title IX is based on scholarships numbers given to each gender. Do you really see any of the top female wrestlers, and I am talking Olympic level, really beating a guy out for a scholarship? Let me tell you that is not going to happen in your life time or mine. Let me tell you I have seen female wreslters, and they are not good. Those that have the technique simply do not have the physical strength to compete with men. It is not like they are giving up a little bit of strength, they are getting over powered.
Maybe if there was a seperate female division it would help but there is no lack of female sports. Colleges are having to invent female sports (crew??) in order to entice women out to college athletics.
Regarding sexuality what would you do if a guy just reached out and copped a femal on a broads boob? I am an official and I have no idea what I would do since it is not illegal. Grabbing a guys nuts is illegal, but contact with the chest is not only legal it is common.
Sorry but if women want to wrestle they need to do it against each other.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 219
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 03:12 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaofficial, now that opens up a whole new can of worms. In today's society sexual harassment seems to be a big concern and a big problem. What is a referee to do when a female wrestlers stops the match and complains about something such as you mentioned, or worse. Example, double grapevine, nice and tight with a little hip pressure applied. You make the call. Top or bottom, it ain't right!
(Message edited by ROCKETMANIA on October 03, 2002)
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 04:27 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rocketmania
That is part of why they don't belong on the same mat. Period.
biffhenderson
Varsity
Location: toledo, ohio, usa
Post Number: 69
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 07:03 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaofficial, i agree with you 100%, girls wanna wrestle.....let them, but do it against other girls, its a bit awkward for a guy to go out on a mat and have to wrestle a girl. some guys having never wrestled before are at a disadvantage already, but then going against a girl makes it worse, not knowing if you can grab there or touch there, it shouldnt be that way. let girls wrestle girls
Bitterrunner-up
All American
Location: Grove Gity, OH, USA
Post Number: 279
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 08:26 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cant believe all the sexual overtones you people attach to our great sport of wrestling. Wrestling is NOT SEXUAL.
Rocketmania...Why would double grapevine, nice and tight with a little hip pressure be any more offensive on a female? If wrestling is so "sex-based", I would think most people would have a bigger problem with two young men in that position.
Come to think about it, if you were a ••• athlelte, this would be the place to be, right? WRONG! Because its not about SEX. It doesn't matter if you're wrestling a male or female, there is nothing sexual about it. If there is for you, then you're the problem.
I wrestled a girl once, and sex was the last thing on my mind. I wrestled her just like I wrestled everyone else, to win.
j~feas
Varsity
Location: Bellevue,Oh
Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 09:41 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my daughter wrestles, and i'll tell you this..the look on the boys face after she just pinned him says it all!! perhaps the embarassment of being beat by a girl has most people not wanting to wrestle against them? and if the boys are distracted by the fact that its a girl, then they arent focusing on the fact that their opponent wants a win just as much if not more because their awareness of the strength differences. an opponent is an opponent..best be thinking of that or you could be looking at the embarassment of losing to a girl as well.
FALL GUY
Varsity
Location: AKRON, OHIO, U.S.A.
Post Number: 141
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:48 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A boy who has to wrestle a girl can't win...if he beats her the other wrestlers will make fun of him for being rough with a girl...if a boy loses to a girl...the teasing never ends...I also know for a fact a lot of boys will not do certain moves to girls that they would a boy and a lot of boys take it easy on the girls...boys can't win...
I had a youth program with a few girls on the team...some of the parents told me that they refused to have their sons work out with the girls...I had no choice but to have the girls work out with each other and the same boys all the time (a lot smaller than the girls).
Ladies, please take it easy on me...I might be old fashioned but it is still my opinion that girls should not be allowed to wrestle on a boys team...
knightflyer150
All American
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 357
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:15 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bitter-
thanks man...finally somebody who is looking at this like a wrestler! I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some of these commenst are making me crazy!
By the way, we are goign to see you guys at Franklin Hts. tourney first week. Have agood pre-season!
KF150
CROSSFACE
All American
Location: Graytown, Ohio
Post Number: 236
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:35 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
j~feas,
Your tones of embarassment of being beat by a girl says it all....I saw your daughter wrestle last year...she is good...I saw her win. This embarassment stuff you speak of...is that what it is all about? Is your daughter simply out there to stir the pot, and show the world that she can win a few matches here and there?
I will come out and say that I am totally against women wrestling in a mens sport...if they want to wrestle, form the team, find some more women and wrestle them. It is being done at the olympic level...why not the high school level...but to say that "perhaps the embarassment of being beat by a girl has most people not wanting to wrestle against them" is not the issue...I think you are proud of your daughter, and that is great...but to be out there to see "the look on the boys face after she just pinned him"...you sound as if you have something else to prove through a little vicarious existence.
NoviWrestler
Varsity
Location: Bexley, Ohio USA
Post Number: 43
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 04:58 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaofficial,
What I am saying in regards to Title IX is simply that maybe by increasing female participation in wrestling, with their own teams, mens teams can be saved from the chopping block.
NoviWrestler
Varsity
Location: Bexley, Ohio USA
Post Number: 44
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:11 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All,
For all the people that said girls need to form their own teams and wrestle each other...
I must not have been clear enough in my soccer analogy. Like with soccer, at some schools there is not enough interest yet in girls wrestling to warrant their own team. So their only option to participate in the sport is on a boys team. Somtimes, like in soccer, they can be competitive.
Fall Guy,
Lee Majors? You are right. It is a no win situation, the boys are expected to win. Guess what? Life sometimes puts a no-win situation in your path. People need to learn to deal with them. Might as well learn how to deal with them in wrestling now than not knowing how later in life on something more important. What is it about wrestling that is different from team sports? You find out what you have in yourself because it is only you on the mat.
I think athletics can build character.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 220
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 06:47 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossface, thank you. I was pretty much going to say the same thing. But you have much more eloquence at it. Besides, no one has taken on the example of volleyball. No boys volleyball available? Join the girls team and see what happens. Then the crying would start. Especially when some 6' 4" senior spikes the ball down the girls throat on the other side of the net. What about the look on her face when that happens? Would that make you proud? Not if your that girls parent. An uproar would take place for sure. If girls want to wrestle, let them. But at the junior high and high school level they should wrestle other girls. No matter what the reason. The differences between men and women, boys and girls are either obvious or you are blind. Are you out there to prove that you are the best female wrestler around or that you are capable of beating up on a few boys? It is a no win situation for the boy, one he should not be put in.
(Message edited by ROCKETMANIA on October 04, 2002)
(Message edited by ROCKETMANIA on October 04, 2002)
eaglenest
Varsity
Post Number: 35
Registered: 07-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 07:14 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't sexual overtones. It isn't any other form of justifying. No! It is wrong and as a wrestling community this must be stated and upheld. It is not a matter of denying girls the opportunity to wrestle. Absolutely not! Just on a girls team. This should not even be a discussion.
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 07:31 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitterrunner-up,
I am well aware of the fact that there is nothing sexual about wrestling. My point is more to the line of what will happen when some nut job parent (and we are in no shortage in this sport) makes accusation against a kid for what they consider unacceptable contact?
Novi Wrester,
Starting a women team will do nothing to help mens teams. As I said they are in no shortage of womens sports that are much more popular. Just because you have a women team does not save the mens team. Take a look at UCLA's mens swimming. NCAA Champs, the following year cut the program for Title IX and budget concerns (but did not cut the football budget) but kept the womens team.
Just because you have a womens team does not mean you will keep your mens team.
Bitter-
As I said I no there is no sex in wrestling, just wacko parents. However women should wrestle women, that is how it is in the Olympics.
TTown
Varsity
Post Number: 115
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 08:59 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, the times...they are a-changin'. The comments in this thread remind me of the struggle people of color endured. Remember, the sky was gonna fall and the mountains crumble if black folk were allowed to use the same bathrooms, attend the same schools, and compete in the same sporting leagues with whites? I wonder how each of you "entitled ones" (males) would argue this issue if you had the same love and passion for the sport of wrestling but happened to be a girl. Let's judge people on merit alone. Anybody worried about negative comments from others for losing to a unworthy opponent (female, blind, one-armed, or one-legged wrestler, etc.) is not focused on the task at hand and is proof positive that Archie Bunker still lives. Why provide opportunity when we can oppress?
By the way, I had a sister that wrestled on the same high school team that I captained. I hated every minute of it. But, she deserved her chance to perform. She figured out for herself that it wasn't her thing. It was her choice, not mine.
NoviWrestler
Varsity
Location: Bexley, Ohio USA
Post Number: 45
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:06 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown,
Well said.
eaglenest
Varsity
Post Number: 36
Registered: 07-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:11 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown, what an absurd comparison. We are not proclaiming any form of discrimmination, and it is unfortunate that you take the efforts and struggles of many for racial equality and use as a comparison as to whether adolescent and older males and females should be wrestling each other. It is far greater than whether or not a female beats a male. As competitors must recognize one will be the winner, one the loser. Also, it is a demeaning comparison made by including wrestlers who are physically, visually, auditorily, etc. challenged. Males should not be wrestling females from middle school up. There must be truth to not having males wrestling females. It isn't happening at the collegiate or olympic levels.
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:52 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown,
Your comparison has absolutley nothing to do with the civil rights fight that took place in this country.
No one wants to deny women the right to wrestle. The arguement deals with the appropriateness of women wrestling men. As stated before it does not happen in college or the Olympics so why is it appropriate to do it in HS?
Also, men are not competing in womens sport (even ones where there is no male equivalent) for a recognized reason. Although I thought I read a few years ago about a bunch of HS guys who tried out for softball. I think they all made and then quit the team right after cuts were announced. People were pissed off at them but I think they were trying to make a statement.
ROCKETMANIA
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 221
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 12:25 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And thank you, eaglenest! That truly is the most absurd comparison I have heard. This has nothing to do with race and there is no comparison what-so-ever. Period. Still no answer to the "question of volleyball". It appears none of the co-ed wrestling supports care to tackle the subject. If we are living in a society of "all things equal", why are there boys teams and girls teams in any sports? Co-ed all sports and allow the "better athletes" to compete in whatever sport it is. There would be a lot less school "tax" dollars spent on athletic programs. Why have all boys schools and all girls schools? Outlaw them. They are not right. If Title IX wants to make all things equal and give women the "same equality" as men in sports, give it to them. No mens programs. No womens programs. All co-ed programs and the best person plays. Is that fair? All things are equal. Everyone would have the same opportunity to be all they can be.
FALL GUY
Varsity
Location: AKRON, OHIO, U.S.A.
Post Number: 146
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:11 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Novi,
Lee Majors knows about no win situations...this is a sport...not life...it is supposed to be fun.
Lee Majors out
shredding T-BONE
Varsity
Location: ohio
Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 09:09 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can any male actually say they would wrestle a girl the "exact" same way as a boy? No. it takes away from the sport.
This might sound weird but girls have a slight advantage to not being pinned. In 8th grade my friend would have set a pin record with team with one more pin. during the season he wrestled a girl and had her on her back pretty much 4 of the 4 and a half minute match. He just couldn't pin her and ended up winning 15-0. This is just one of the many reasons girls shouldn't wrestle boys
shredding T-BONE
Varsity
Location: ohio
Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 09:11 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what i mean is they are for a fact more flexable than boys at this age
j~feas
Varsity
Location: Bellevue,Oh
Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 01:03 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cross-face...of course i'm proud of my daughter wrestling, and am also proud of the other girls that wrestled for willard jr high. she loves to wrestle period. and if the schools were to have a female program, i'm sure she'd be right in there, but it isnt offered. so what is an athlete to do when the sport isnt offered for their sex? join the other team. i hope more girls do join, that would help both sides, the girls would get their own teams and in doing so, the boys will have only boys to wrestle again. its the beginnings of a tough transitional period for female wrestling...lets hope it catches on and takes off. until then, the female wrestlers must match up against the boys.
Panther03
Varsity
Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 01:26 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in the mud im all for it, on the mat i feel that they shouldnt be allowed, i dont think it woudl be a matter of sexuality but like said b4 people will not perform some of the same moves on girls strictly for that sole purpose, that takes away from the sport
(Message edited by refman on October 05, 2002)
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2683
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 02:21 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Panther03..Welcome to JJ's. I delted some of your post because of some of your comments. Be nice to everyone..or don't post. This is your one and only...WARNING
iwrestle2001
Varsity
Post Number: 87
Registered: 07-2001
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 02:21 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont think it should EVER happen
willardwrestlin
Varsity
Location: Willard,Ohio USA
Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 09:00 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
j~feas ,, I have seen your daughter wrestle .. she is very good . Continued success to her. I have heard that a few more girls are going to go out for wrestling this year at Willard.
Panther03
Varsity
Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 04:29 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Refman, what posts where deleted, with all due respect I understand the rules of the huddle and dont remember posting anything disrepectful
Panther03
Varsity
Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 04:30 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ohh sorry nvermind i found what you were refering too, i understand and it wont happen again
nybucksmom
Varsity
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 06:44 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's another thought on this...Last year we had a girl on our team. We were all in great support of her, she's a great kid and worked hard! However, she started dating one of the boy wrestlers. At a very important tournament, she decided to ignore him, because she didn't want to date him anymore. Talk about messing with his mind. He placed, but I honestly feel he would have placed higher, had it not been for the dating problems. I know skill and strength are very important, but we all know a great percentage is attitude and being totally focused. I'm all for the girls getting out there and wrestling, but I have to agree that after a certain age, they need an all girl's team. Unfortunately, we don't have one here, so what is a girl to do? Tough decision.
sm119
All American
Location: St.Marys ohio, 31-7!!
Post Number: 456
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 08:26 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if the girls want to wrestle on the guys team let them, if they are good enough to beat the guy in the starting spot they should have it, if they want an all girls league team that is great, but these new rules are crap and ruining wrestling for all athletes.
i really don't see why some people have such a problem with girls wrestling guys? I personally wouldnt want to wrestle a girl but if she was better than me then she is better than me.
i think it would be great to have girls teams everywhere but if they don't they should be allowed. And if they get involved in anyway, thats both of their problems, no ecxuses.
matfan
Varsity
Location: NW Ohio
Post Number: 18
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 09:35 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plain and simple, this is a no win situation for the boys who wrestle the girls; win or lose. If they go out and wrestle tough, they're "being mean" and if they lose to a girl, they "lost to a girl".
TTown
Varsity
Post Number: 118
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 10:20 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eaglesnest, nvaofficial, Rocketmania - Absurd? Why do you think that the comparison to the civil rights struggle isn't valid. You are advocating an exclusionary policy based soley on gender. That is not dissimilar from exclusion based on race. Let's be clear! I understand that none of you are advocating racial discrimination. And I am not attempting to demean the civil rights struggle. What I am saying is that your views, regardless of your reasons, still equate to exclusion by gender. Again, that may not be on as grand a scale but it similar, in concept, to exclusion by race.
I applaud anyone with the courage to step on the mat. It is truly amazing and wonderful to see kids with physical disabilities compete in the sport. Dragging those people into this discussion is, indeed, unfortunate, albeit, relevant. The "shame" of losing to a girl is comparable to the "shame" of losing to a person with a disability. I've been a participant or coach for nearly 25 years. Anytime a kid loses to a girl or a disabled person they get harassed for losing to a person perceived to be disadvantaged and less capable. I've heard both kids and parents express those type of thoughts. Therefore, in the context of this discussion of girls wrestling boys, it is a relevant comparison, especially since many of the views on this thread suggest a) girls aren't capable of competing with the "advantaged" ones; and b) boys are placed in a no-win situation.
I agree with your point on volleyball and softball. That is also an exclusionary policy. It, too, should not be tolerated.
Anybody willing to step on the mat should be given a chance to do so. Competitors should understand that they participate at their own peril.
Eaglesnest - Can you explain why my comments, in my earlier post, on the comparison to the civil rights is "unfortunate"? Also, can you explain why my earlier comments "demeaned" the physically disabled?
lionsrule
Varsity
Post Number: 49
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 10:41 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The issue here is one that will never be settled. Some say that it is wrong others say different. I know that if I had a girl, there is no way I would let her wrestle with boys after the age of ten. Wrestling is not a sexual sport, but I could not bear seeing my daughter wrestle when she was in middle school. As a middle school teacher, I know what a lot of middle school boys are like, and I would not want them touching my duaghter that way. The bottom line here is simple. Girls cannot compete against boys anyway. Maybe in Middle School you canhave a successful girl, but the chances drop dramatically in high school.
I would have liked to play Volleyball in highschool but we only had girls teams. Should I have been able to play?
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 36
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:01 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown,
If you can not see the difference between exclusion in life based upon race and exclsion in sports based on gender then I don't know what to tell you.
I am certain that I could make the Olympic team for women wrestling but I would get destroyed on trying out for the mens team. Does that mean I should be able to tryout for the womens team? Why should they be able to exclude me? For that matter why does the military exclude women from certain jobs?
eaglenest
Varsity
Post Number: 37
Registered: 07-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 11:45 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown simply my opinion. Isn't that the beauty of this forum. We all can express opinion. My reason to call exception to your comparison is that in no way am I saying that girls should be denied the right to wrestle. Just not against boys. You know, the real issue here is for school systems to become progressive and start. girls programs. Your comparisons are unfortunate and demeaning in that the causes of racial equality and equality of physically, mentally, and emotionally challenged far exceed the demands of having girls wrestle guys. Again, I do not feel anybody is trying to stop gilrs from wrestling.
TTown
Varsity
Post Number: 119
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:07 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eaglesnest - I actually agree that a girls wrestling program should be offered if there is enough interest. In the meantime, equal opportunity should exist. I also agree that the struggles for racial equality and for phyically challenged are far more important than girls wrestling with guys. I am not nor would I ever argue that. I am merely pointing out the similar line of thinking.
nvaofficial - Understand the difference between exclusion in life based on race and exclusion i sports based on gender? Do I detect sarcasm or frustration? I took the time to read and reflect upon your opinion. Your position is clear. Evidently, you haven't figured out mine so I'll try to spell it out for you. In my opinion, everyone should have opportunity. I am not arguing for girls to wrestle with guys, necessarily. I am saying I am all for it if that is the only way they can participate. If a girl is gifted enough and tough-minded enough to put up the flack then I say "GO FOR IT"! If your goal is to represent the United States womens Olympic wrestling team then I say "GO FOR IT"! You shouldn't be held back. As for your question regarding the military - should a women capable of performing one of those jobs be denied the opportunity?
nvaofficial, eaglenest - Some comments made in this thread had sexual overtones. How do you feel about homosexual boys participating in wrestling? Since the potential exists for inappropriate touching, should they be excluded?
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 39
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 04:06 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I stated before grabbing a guys nuts is agaisnt the rules, whether you are •••• or heterosexual. Grabbing someones chest is not. So what should a ref do if a kid is copping a feel during a match?
My point regarding the military is that they recognize the physical differences between men and women and that is why there are jobs that are not available to women. That is why there is womens wrestling in the Olympics, because the IOC recognizes the physical differences between men and women.
TTown
Varsity
Post Number: 120
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:28 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaofficial - the potential exists for anybody to cop a feel. It doesn't have to be the chest or the genitals. It could also be the buttocks. You can be fondled inappropriately whether male or female. This is a contact sport and anybody stepping on the mat should understand the risks.
Is that the same military that has all the sexual harassment allegations in their officer ranks in the fairly recent past? (By the way, I am a proud veteran of the U.S. Air Force). I understand your point but that's not such a good example.
I don't pretend to know what motivates the IOC - they're intent on dropping Greco Roman from the Olympics.
Let's agree to disagree on this topic.
NoviWrestler
Varsity
Location: Bexley, Ohio USA
Post Number: 46
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:58 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaoffical,
The difference is that there is already a men's olympic team. When a same sex team is available in sports, players are able to compete in their sport with their sex (e.g.: boys and girls basketball). Governing bodies, in recognition of the difference between boys and girls, do not let boys compete on a girls team unless there is not a boys team in the sport (e.g.: Field Hockey). SO, once women's wrestling takes-off and there are women's teams, the only way they can participate scholastically is with boys. They do this for other sports, like football and soccer. Bexley Middle School has two girls on their football team, I believe.
matfan,
Sorry, I still do not think that this "no-win" situation is a justifiable reason for excluding girls from participating. This "no-win" is a prejudice. Individuals girls have shown success in wrestling against boys, even in high school. So, a preconceived notion that every male wrestler can beat every girl wrestler is false.
lionsrule,
Maybe you cannot see your daughter wrestling, but other parents and daughters may not feel the same way. Should your revulsion(?) deny others from making a choice?
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 43
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 06:26 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NoviWrestler,
As you pointed out there are mens teams and womens teams, do to the physical differances.
My point is not to deny women the right to wrestle and compete but to mearly state that because of the physical differences they should not be competing against each other.
If there were no difference in the physical make up of males and females then there would be no need for seperate male/female teams.
TTown,
I am not sure of the purpose of your remark about sexual harrassment in the military. Was it to simply insult military officers? As I stated the military has recognized the differences in gender and that is why boot camp and various occupations in the military are seperated. That is the same reason why I think males and females should not be wrestling each other, particularly while in adolesence.
NoviWrestler
Varsity
Location: Bexley, Ohio USA
Post Number: 47
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 06:49 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaofficial,
You are right, they should not have to compete against each other. But, since most schools do not have girls wrestling, they have to participate on the same team. This is no different than in other sports. They have allowed boys to play on girls field hockey teams, despite the obvious advantage. Also, they allow girls to play on boys teams. They play on football teams and on boys soccer teams (when there is no girls team at the school). Sometimes, good girls can compete against boys.
RHSBulldog04
Varsity
Location: Rossford, Ohio, USA
Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 10:41 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boys wrestling girls is a complete no-win situation for the boy involved.
I can say this because I have wrestled numerous girls in the past. Unfortunately, one of these matches came at a time early on when I was lesser skilled than one of them, and I am not afraid to admit that I did lose a match to a girl. This was devastating to my young-adolencent psyche and it nearly even caused quit the sport. I can not explain how it feels to be harassed day in and day out for the longest time by your peers not only on the team but in the classroom as well.
I can also relate to the other side of wrestling a girl. When I won, I was still subject to razzing by my team mates and peers. I also recieved many dirty looks from adults who witnessed the match and felt that I "went too hard on her". Now come on, how fair is that? How exactly is the male wrestler supposed to approach this situation? It is like we can't go too hard, but we can't go too soft or else we risk ultimate humiliation.
I understand the desire and passion that some girls have for the sport, because I share that desire and passion. But lets face it, if I wanted to join the volleyball team, I would have a snowball's chance in heck of actually being able to join. But if a girl wants to wrestle, or play football, they have all the support in the world. I understand that men aren't playing in women's sports because of obvious physical differences. The bottom line is, people should stop trying to tinker with an ancient sport that clearly was oriented towards one sex.
eaglenest
Varsity
Post Number: 39
Registered: 07-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 07:13 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good spirited debate! Excellent points of view! And who knows??? These simple threads may be be the starting point for instituting wrestling for girls at the very least the high school level.
TTown, the point of contention regarding homosexual wrestlers is although one to speculate upon, certainly not one for comparison. In my 35 plus years in wrestling, I would have to assume that there has been at the very least a match or two involving a homosexual wrestler. I can honestly say that in no way, shape , or form have I ever seen any action that would indicate such a wrestler. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, a young man wrestling is out there to compete for the love of the competition and the sport.
Once again, in my opinion, your drawing attention to homosexuals wrestling as an equavalent to girls wrestling boys is a huge leap.
TTown, I'm certainly not trying to placate you. Great discussion and point of view! Thanks!
Bitterrunner-up
All American
Location: Grove Gity, OH, USA
Post Number: 286
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 08:27 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RHSBulldog04...I am so sick of hearing all this "no-win situation" stuff. Guys say it all the time. I don't buy it. Get the "w", period. By winning the match and wretling your best, you are doing everything you're supposed to. If some parent gives you a dirty look, then they are the problem, not you or the girl.
Go out there and wrestle the same way you always do. Why do you let your opponent (any opponent) get into your head? Stay focused on the task at hand, winning the match. You spend so much time worrying about the gender of the person you're wrestling, its no wonder you lost to a girl. I bet she was focused on the match.
TTown
Varsity
Post Number: 121
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 08:58 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eaglesnest - Good show! We both agree that there have been homosexual wrestlers. You've confirmed that in your experience you've never seen inappropriate touching. They're out there fighting...love wasn't on anybody's mind. IMO, if a homosexual wrestler can turn off the love and bring on the pain then heterosexuals can, too. That is a valid comparison.
nvaofficial - Stop the nonsense! As I said before, I am a vet. My father was a vet and my son is an active member of the armed services. Do not twist my comments. While I am a strong advocate of our military, it is certainly flawed. Clearly, it has a long and storied history as a sexist institution. That is the reason that why it is not a good example. Furthermore, the reasons that women are "separated" from men were for "morale" and "preparedness". They didn't want to distract the men from their duties. Lastly, while in boot camp, we were in a co-ed squadron. Our sister flight was, indeed, female. We did everything together except sleeping in the same dorm and showering.
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 45
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 10:05 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown,
That is not the way boot camp is run in the Marine Corps, it is completely seperated. The reason is the physical capabilites of females are completely different from males.
As I stated if there was no difference why does the Olympics hold a seperate female wrestling tournament? Women are seperated from men in various occupations in the armed forces because of their physical limitations, not "morale" or "preparedness".
TTown
Varsity
Post Number: 122
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 10:26 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaofficial - The physical capabilities of individuals are completely different. The "reason" you are specifically offering for the military's separation of males and females is a sexist stereotype. We are now at the heart of the matter. Welcome to the party. I knew you'd come.
I have been arguing for opportunity not necessarily for co-ed anything. In fact, I prefer the separation in wrestling. However, in the absence of a female team, the only opportunity available is to wrestle with guys.
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 47
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 01:25 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown,
Appearently you have failed to realize why women are not in the infantry, their inability to physically handle the same things as males. That is not a sexist sterotype, it is a physical reality.
Up until your last post you have made it very clear that you see nothing wrong with males and females wrestling each other, I have to ask which is it?
president
All Star
Location: The White House
Post Number: 1556
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 02:03 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are always threads about girl's in wrestling. How about women as wrestling coaches. Is there anywhere that has one as a head coach or assistant? If not should there be?
cheesybiscuits
Varsity
Post Number: 69
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:32 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No not that I know of, but I wouldn't care about a girl coach only if she left when we took showers because that would be a little uncomfortablle.
ptrsn
Varsity
Post Number: 63
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:43 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i once saw a woman coaching at a tournament. she was the coaches wife at shenandoah and her husband could not come that day so she took over coaching. she did well in my opinion and seemed to have a good grip on moves and strategy.
cheesybiscuits
Varsity
Post Number: 77
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:48 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from shenandoah? as in noble county! I wrestle for them but I dont remember this
atowngrappler91
Varsity
Post Number: 36
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:50 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow I have never heard of such a thing. I can most certainly say that I would not wrestle for one either. Not that I wouldn't wrestle. I just wouldnot wrestle for a woman coach. It would take alot for a woman to be qualified to coach wrestling. That would mean that she would of had to wrestled and been good. That doesn't happen there are few and very few cases where women have been state qualifiers but not in ohio west virginia I am sure. This is of course my opinion but I feel that to be a good coach then you needed to have wrestled and been good too. I am not disputing the fact that there coaches out there that get the job done. There are exceptions to every rule. My opinion how ever is though you can't coach someone to do something you haven't done yourself. Actions are louder than words.
tufenuf
Varsity
Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 01:58 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find this topic amusing...Only because I have coached my son in quite a few tourneys when my husband had to work on the weekend. Funniest and most memorable match was when my son was getting to wrestle for the championships against a "coach's son" and the dad looked over at me and my son and said "look at your competition for this match, His mom is the coach!" and both started to laugh...
I took my son aside and said "you better deck this kid in the first period!"
My son pinned him in 12 seconds...that's when I looked at the other coach and said loudly..."How's that for a Momma's Boy"!!!!
(Message edited by tufenuf on October 02, 2002)
atowngrappler91
Varsity
Post Number: 39
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:08 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lol that is funny tufenuf
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2630
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:23 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tufenuf...wish I had heard that as a ref....He would of been gone.
Twizzler
Varsity
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 25
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:29 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have seen a lady help out often at Port Clinton. She is a coaches wife and she helps at the biddy level and high school. She may not be an official "Coach", just very much involved.
I'm sure someone will know!?!
You go tufenuf, I prefer to videotape!!
jerrygame
All Star
Post Number: 4302
Registered: 08-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:34 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Refman, her reply was probably better left unsaid also.
Some of these mom/coaches at youth tournaments are a show in and of themselves.
Of course the same can be said for the fathers. Although the mother involvement seems to back off a bit during high school.
(Message edited by jerrygame on October 02, 2002)
Taz
Varsity
Location: Marion, Oh
Post Number: 189
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:53 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you havent seen women coach you havent been to very many open tournaments. I know many wrestlers mothers that would be great coaches.
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2641
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:55 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jerrygame...your right...I always tend to appreciate "tit for tat" though.
LHS7870
All American
Location: Bowling Green, Ohio
Post Number: 500
Registered: 11-2000
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:31 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many years ago when I was coaching JH in the Toledo area there was a team that was coached by a husband/wife team. I have not seen any more for awhile.
ptrsn
Varsity
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:38 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
atowngrappler91
i do not believe that you need to have been a good wrestler to be a good coach. also, being a good wrestler does not mean you will be a good coach. the problem many who were good wrestlers have when coaching is that they cannot relate to kids who are just happy to be on the team. a good wrestler worked his butt off when he was wrestling and when he sees a kid who is not willing to do that and the kid doesn't seem to care if he wins or loses, the coach (who was a good wrestler) has a hard time relating to that kids thought process. because obviuosly whatever motivated the coach does not motivate the wrestler.
also, i had a coach who was never a good wrestler. he watched videotapes to learn moves to show during technique sessions. being a good coach is like being a good wrestler, even if your not a natural at it, if you work hard enough you can become great.
cheesybiscuits-i am talking about the shenandoah in noble county but this was 12-13 years ago you probably were 3-4 years old then. it was coach blackburn's wife.
jerrygame
All Star
Post Number: 4317
Registered: 08-2000
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:40 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taz, as you get more involved with the big boys and out of those youth and jr high classes, you'll see less and less women around the mats. In the stands, yes, around the mats, no.
cheesybiscuits
Varsity
Post Number: 82
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:40 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I figured it had to have been Blackburn's wife because he is a very very good coach and I'm sure his wife would know a little.
I figured any mom whose kid wrestles would know alot about wrestling. Because my mom has been to every single one of my tournaments since I was in 1st grade, she has been to at least 200 tournaments, all moms know what I am talking about.
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 25
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 02:32 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grade school I can understand and would allow my son (by the way I don't have one) to be coached by a women. Middle school would be a stretch, I imagine I would allow her to sit in the corner.
HS you would have to be absolutely joking me. What could she possibly know or teach. Now ten years from now if women wrestling takes off there very well may be women who understand the sport but right now even the best females are not very knowledgeable or good.
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 26
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 02:36 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cheesybiscuit,
watching a match and coaching are two completely different things. Hell wrestling and coaching are two completely different things. A lot of very good wrestlers take a while to translate to good coaches. And if you REALLY want to go one farther wrestling and coaching are a long way from beign able to officiate.
All though it is alwyas a favorite of mine when a parent comes to me after a match and wants to explain the proper interpreation of the rules to me, always a laugh.
FALL GUY
Varsity
Location: AKRON, OHIO, U.S.A.
Post Number: 148
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:33 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My wife thinks she is a wrestling coach sometimes for the little ones...her favorite advice is "don't get hurt honey" and "squeeze his head".
shredding T-BONE
Varsity
Location: ohio
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 08:41 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don t think a women would be able to motivate high shool boy well at all
MediumRare
Varsity
Location: summerfield
Post Number: 24
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:20 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think a women would do great......i'm sure i feel the same way alot of guys do.....i love it when the women is in charge of the "mat" lol
In-Hoc
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 476
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 01:23 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There was a woman coach for Waterloo high school back in the late 80's early 90's. She took over the program so it would not be shut down by the administration. She kept things in line and did very well. She even had the cleveland news come down and did a highlight special on her. Because of her the school still has a program. She is still a teacher at that school and she teaches home economics of all things (wrestlers and food just don't mix well durring the season). Her name is Deenean Hankins. THANK YOU VERY MUCH MS. Hankins
TTown
Varsity
Post Number: 116
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 09:09 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nvaofficial - I guess I don't understand the joke. What could a women possibly know or teach at the high school level? You don't have to be a great wrestler to be an effective coach or leader. Sports are littered with great coaches that "never played the game". I know that Tom Talbot never wrestled a day in his life but he built Cardinal Stritch into a state powerhouse during the 70's. If a man can become an excellent coach through study and application then can't a women do the same?
matfan
Varsity
Location: NW Ohio
Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2002
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 09:40 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perrysburg Junior High had a woman assistant coach for a year or two in the mid-1980's. I think her brother's wrestled and she was pretty familiar with the sport. It did not seem to be a problem.
In-Hoc
All American
Location: Ohio
Post Number: 484
Registered: 04-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 07:52 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bump
jtzpride
Varsity
Location: OH
Post Number: 63
Registered: 09-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 02:40 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't think people "played" wrestling. But, on the topic, I am sure it would be a problem for many wrestlers.
pac 189
Varsity
Location: Sandusky Oh
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 07:55 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
not that i know of but if there was one i wouldnt play for her i would wrestle for her
Mart
All Star
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Post Number: 1495
Registered: 09-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 08:31 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toledo Woodward had a woman assistant coach about 2-3 years ago.
AnimalsMom
All Star
Location: Columbus,Ohio,USA
Post Number: 1426
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 04:35 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tufenuf
I LOVE IT!!! You sound as spunky as me....lol
Refman,
Wasn't there a woman asst. coach for East High School a few years ago?
She was afro American if that helps jog your memory. She was hard as nails and the young men on the team really seemed to respect her knowledge.
Nvaofficial,
Please step into the time machine and let me zap you into the 21st century!
You might not want to place a big money bet on your last statement of yours. You'll loose a lot of money if you do!
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 55
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 05:19 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTown,
Probably not the right choice of words. Was really referring more to the ability of a women to motivate adolecent boys. I just don't really see it. I don't see a women getting the same response out of teenage boys as a man. To the same degree that is kind of my feelings about young guys coaching, they need a certain seasoning. I have seen 19 years guys right out of HS in varsity chairs and they are not real effective.
Animals mom which statement, about parents with rule books or female refs?
Refman
Moderator
Post Number: 2735
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 05:46 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AnimalsMom...I think your're right....btw..still looking fo the email address for your Animal.
nvaofficial...a little note here. AnimalsMom is a parent...a mom to be exact....and...very knowledgable concerning the rules, and the sport....and..she is a great Huddler. Tred lightly.
Hip Ripper
Varsity
Location: Dublin, Ohio USA
Post Number: 94
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2002 - 10:25 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was a stat in the 80's, I've graduated one wrestler, and It's the senior year of another. Now their sister is in junior high, and wrestling.
I've gone to camps, and hit the mats right with all 3 of them. They've said I'm too demanding of them as athletes, and mean as hell, even more so than some coaches.
I do train my daughter differently than my boys. Her power as a girl is naturally in her hips & legs, so I've emphasized leg wrestling & building her upper body strength.
So, how many years of experience do you need to "qualify" to be a wrestling coach anyway?
You guys tell me.........
nvaofficial
Varsity
Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 08:07 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
refman,
I am assuming that you are an official by your name. If that is the case I am assuming you have dealt with the "insane" parents that are present in wrestling (actually in all sports). Knowing the rule book is one thing, knowing application is another. In addition many times these parents get very emotional and let that cloud judgement.
The big problem with fans/parents trying to tell you the rules is that in the stands you do not see the same things that you see on the mat. I am sure there are calls that I have not seen do to being on the mat that are seen in the stands, however the bottom line is that as an official if you don't see it you can't call it.
AnimalsMom,
Don't take my comments as an attack on parents, they are great for the sport and I love the emotion they bring for their kids (and I am not just referring to biological). But if you are a fan then you certainly know what I am talking about with some of these nut jobs.
AnimalsMom
All Star
Location: Columbus,Ohio,USA
Post Number: 1429
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 11, 2002 - 04:32 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nvaofficial
I was talking about this comment
"HS you would have to be absolutely joking me. What could she possibly know or teach. Now ten years from now if women wrestling takes off there very well may be women who understand the sport but right now even the best females are not very knowledgeable or good."
I in no way took that as an attack on parents, I was looking more at the women not having any knowledge or understanding of this sport. You couldn't be more wrong!!!!!! There are a few of us that know and understand this sport better than some of the fathers in the stands. Heck, I have dad's ask me questions.
What you said about some parents. Some do tend to shall we say...go over the edge!! However, If there is a rule change that I don't understand I will be the first to ask an official to clarify it for me, but I have never fought with a ref. I may not agree with a call or lack of one but I keep it to myself. For one I am not on the mat just like you said, I have said that for many years myself.
So please let me hold the door to the time machine open for you. I'll have you in the year 2002 before you know it....LOL
Hey Refman,
Animal is taking off tomorrow for his MCT and we won't be able to talk to him for almost a month. So really there is no rush. Once he gets out to Calf.and starts his MOS then he will have some time to contact that person. Thanks for your help on this too!
(Message edited by AnimalsMom on October 11, 2002)
Hip Ripper
Varsity
Location: Dublin, Ohio USA
Post Number: 95
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 01:37 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Animalsmom, nice. As a mother, and a wrestler, I thank you. When I won my first match ever, this year, there was NO coach down there with me. There was, howe
